# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 262
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5358 "2025-10-10T04:38:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > They choose to destroy them, instead What do you mean by “destroyed”? The area was evacuated during the fighting, but the hospital is operational again and has been for over a year (for Al Shifa as an example). > [@puzzlegal](#): > > If the enemy can literally operate out of any location, because “operating” means “some guys with guns were standing there”, it becomes absurd to destroy every location they have stood in, even after they’ve fled That’s not a thing that happened. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Israel could have occupied the hospitals and kept them running. Since the conduct I’m criticizing Hamas for is putting actively operating military units in hospitals, I don’t know that _occupying_ said hospitals while keeping them full of civilian patients is a good solution. Israel can certainly secure the sorrounding area to the point where the fighting in and immediately around the hospital dies down, withdraw Israeli troops from the hospital, and allow it to be staffed again; which is _precisely what has been happening_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5359 "2025-10-10T06:47:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What do you mean by “destroyed”? The area was evacuated during the fighting, but the hospital is operational again and has been for over a year (for Al Shifa as an example). …just a reminder that Al Shifa isn’t the only hospital in Gaza. For example, there is the Turkish Friendship Hospital. I literally posted video of it getting blown up. I think by “destroyed”, I think “blown to bits” would be an accurate way to describe it. As for Al Shifa: the fact that it has been rehabilitated so many times is a _tribute to the resilience of the Palestinian people_. It was placed under siege twice. Raided multiple times. Hospital staff had to bury bodies in the courtyard. After the second siege the IDF left hundreds of bodies in its wake, left to [decompose](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/09/middleeast/israel-gaza-mass-graves-al-shifa-hospital-intl). It was left in ruins. [Six months of war leave Al-Shifa hospital in ruins, WHO mission reports](https://www.who.int/news/item/06-04-2024-six-months-of-war-leave-al-shifa-hospital-in-ruins--who-mission-reports#:~:text=The%20hospital's%20oxygen%20plant%20has,oxygen%20production%20in%20the%20north). _Most of the buildings are extensively damaged or destroyed and the majority of equipment is unusable or reduced to ashes. The WHO team said that the scale of devastation has left the facility completely non-functional, further reducing access to life-saving health care in Gaza._ _…_ _The hospital’s emergency department, surgical, and maternity ward buildings are extensively damaged due to explosives and fire. The western wall of the emergency department and northern wall of the neonatal intensive care department (NICU) have been torn down. At least 115 beds in what once was the emergency department have been burnt and 14 incubators in the NICU destroyed, among other assets._ _…_ _According to the acting Hospital Director, patients were held in abysmal conditions during the siege. They endured severe lack of food, water, health care, hygiene and sanitation, and were forced to relocate between buildings at gun point. At least 20 patients have reportedly died due to the lack of access to care and limited movement authorized for health personnel._ > [@Babale](#): > > That’s not a thing that happened. Why did they blow up Turkish Friendship Hospital? > [@Babale](#): > > Since the conduct I’m criticizing Hamas for is putting actively operating military units in hospitals, I don’t know that _occupying_ said hospitals while keeping them full of civilian patients is a good solution. That is what they would be obliged to do under the very international law that you cite. > [@Babale](#): > > Israel can certainly secure the sorrounding area to the point where the fighting in and immediately around the hospital dies down, withdraw Israeli troops from the hospital, and allow it to be staffed again; which is _precisely what has been happening_. Israel took over and turned the Turkish Friendship Hospital into a military base, then when they withdrew they literally blew it up. So in that example, that is precisely _not_ what happened. Why did they blow up the hospital? ---
**Author:** ![Jegpeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jegpeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jegpeg)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5360 "2025-10-10T10:06:56Z")
While I am not sure all the reports on what the IDF have done is correct it is clear Israel has done a lot of things that are wrong a lot of the peace deal concerns me. In pretty much every other incidence the general concensus is you shouldn’t give in to the demands of criminals and terrorists. If criminals put ransomwear on your PC paying them to unblock it will only encpurage the (and others) to do the same thing. The US did not stop supporting Isreal in response to 9/11. On the 7th October Hamas’ terrorist action killed about 1200 and kidnapped about 250. Under intense pressure from the rest of the world Isreal is now releasing meeting most of Hamas’s demands. About 2000 members of a terrorist organisation many of whom have actually committed terrorist acts, it appears very likely that they will give up land that Hamas demand, the only significant concention my Hamas appears to be that they will not have any part in the governance of a future Palastinian state but I am not sure how to prevent it effectively being reformed under another name in the way the Hamas fought (and won) the 2006 elections under the “change and reform list” banner. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5361 "2025-10-10T11:25:46Z")
> [@Jegpeg](#): > > About 2000 members of a terrorist organisation many of whom have actually committed terrorist acts …more correctly, _alleged_ to have committed terrorist acts. Many are completely innocent. Israel hold thousands of Palestinians in detention under [administrative detention](https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention), including women and children. Which means some of them _don’t even know why they are being held_. The deal would mean all children detained by Israel after October 7th will be released so my first question would be: why are they holding children? > [@Jegpeg](#): > > , it appears very likely that they will give up land that Hamas demand Any land that is “given back” is _Palestinian land_. > [@Jegpeg](#): > > the only significant concention my Hamas appears to be that they will not have any part in the governance of a future Palastinian state It means Hamas are no longer in power. > [@Jegpeg](#): > > but I am not sure how to prevent it effectively being reformed under another name in the way the Hamas fought (and won) the 2006 elections under the “change and reform list” banner. Back in 2020 I was worried that Donald Trump would get back into power, but I didn’t propose doing anything other than free and fair elections. But in this case part of the agreement is that _“Hamas and other factions agree to not have any role in the governance of Gaza, directly, indirectly, or in any form.”_ And there is a _" guarantee will be provided by regional partners to ensure that Hamas, and the factions, comply with their obligations and that New Gaza poses no threat to its neighbours or its people."_ So it appears your concerns have been acknowledged and are _integral_ to the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5362 "2025-10-10T12:52:50Z")
> [@Jegpeg](#): > > In pretty much every other incidence the general concensus is you shouldn’t give in to the demands of criminals and terrorists. If criminals put ransomwear on your PC paying them to unblock it will only encpurage the (and others) to do the same thing. The US did not stop supporting Isreal in response to 9/11. The US cut deals with Iran-backed terrorists to fight Al Qaeda and their terrorist allies in Iraq, and now is thawing relations with Syria now that those same Al Qaeda affiliated terrorists are running the country. Not to mention we acquiesced to the Taluban demand to fully withdraw from Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5363 "2025-10-10T13:04:35Z")
> [@Jegpeg](#): > > On the 7th October Hamas’ terrorist action killed about 1200 and kidnapped about 250. Under intense pressure from the rest of the world Isreal is now releasing meeting most of Hamas’s demands. About 2000 members of a terrorist organisation many of whom have actually committed terrorist acts, it appears very likely that they will give up land that Hamas demand, Yeah you are 100% correct. Israel has always placed incredibly high value on the lives of Israelis captured by the enemy, and consider the treatment people like Ron Arad and Gilad Shalit, that’s understandable. At the same time - you can draw a bright red line directly from the Shalit deal to October 7th. Not only was Sinwar one of the terrorists released (after Israel saved the fucker’s life from a should-have-been-fatal brain tumor while he was in custody), but releasing over a thousand prisoners for a single hostage created the twisted incentive structure that led to October 7. I think it’s a massive problem. I don’t have a better solution. The current hostages have to be released. But it is nearly certain that the thousands of terrorists released in exchange will kill far more people than the number of hostage lives save, in the long run. I find that a very bitter pill to swallow. My hope is that if Hamas is knocked out of power by the war, that sends its own message, to counter the admittedly powerful message that releasing nearly 2,000 terrorists sends. But in general, I do think we need to do a lot less of negotiating with terrorists, for precisely the reasons you outline. If we’d taken a hardliner stance on Shalit, maybe October 7 never happens. That’s terrible, because the guy has rebuilt his life and the fact that after what he went through he is just living his best life is inspiring. But how can you not weigh that against all the people who were butchered on Oct 7? > [@Jegpeg](#): > > the only significant concention my Hamas appears to be that they will not have any part in the governance of a future Palastinian state but I am not sure how to prevent it effectively being reformed under another name in the way the Hamas fought (and won) the 2006 elections under the “change and reform list” banner. Do keep in mind though that this is only phase 1. Hamas _will_ have to make further concessions, including stepping down from power and disarming, or the war _will_ resume. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5364 "2025-10-10T13:14:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Many are completely innocent _Press X to doubt_ Over a quarter are convicted of murders and have life sentences specifically. The list of who is being released comes from Hamas demands, and of course, they don’t give a shit about releasing random civilians, they want fighters. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The deal would mean all children detained by Israel after October 7th will be released so my first question would be: why are they holding children? Do you think you have to be 18 years old to join Hamas? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Any land that is “given back” is _Palestinian land_. Any land that was “given back” to Germany by America on May 5, 1955 was _German land_. That’s what happens when you invade your neighbor and fail. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Back in 2020 I was worried that Donald Trump would get back into power, but I didn’t propose doing anything other than free and fair elections. The United States didn’t just invade their neighbors and lose in 2020, and is also an official country with a 200+ year history of democratic elections; so that’s really a strange comparison. A better one might be Germany, which _unconditionally surrendered_\* (a thing Hamas hasn’t done yet) in 1945, which then held its first post-war election in 1949. Gaza is much smaller, so I doubt it will take as long. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5365 "2025-10-10T13:25:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _Press X to doubt_ …what are the children guilty of? > [@Babale](#): > > The list of who is being released comes from Hamas demands, and of course, they don’t give a shit about releasing random civilians, they want fighters. Why are women and children on the Hamas lists? > [@Babale](#): > > Do you think you have to be 18 years old to join Hamas? Are you claiming the detained children are _terrorists_? > [@Babale](#): > > That’s what happens when you invade your neighbor and fail. Are you claiming this is an annexation? > [@Babale](#): > > The United States didn’t just invade their neighbors and lose in 2020 The United States has a history of invading other countries, and undermining democracy. > [@Babale](#): > > and is also an official country with a 200+ year history of democratic elections And look where they are now. A reality host as president with a literal nazi whispering in his ear. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5366 "2025-10-10T13:28:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > The list of who is being released comes from Hamas demands, and of course, they don’t give a shit about releasing random civilians, they want fighters. > > Why are women and children on the Hamas lists? > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Do you think you have to be 18 years old to join Hamas? > > Are you claiming the detained children are _terrorists_? It blows your mind that a 17 year old or a person with XX chromosomes can be a terrorist? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > That’s what happens when you invade your neighbor and fail. > > Are you claiming this is an annexation? No, I’m claiming that like Germany, Hamas tried to invade their neighbors and conquer them, failed miserably, and is now being occupied as a consequence during a transitionary stage while their neighbor makes sure they don’t invade again the moment the defending country leaves. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And look where they are now. A reality host as president with a literal nazi whispering in his ear. Oooh, don’t look up who the leader of the PA is or what his doctorate is in, if you don’t like leaders who are literal Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5367 "2025-10-10T13:33:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > > > Do you think you have to be 18 years old to join Hamas? > > > > Are you claiming the detained children are _terrorists_? > > It blows your mind that a 17 year old or a person with XX chromosomes can be a terrorist? I’m curious how old these children are. Because here i agree with Babale, a 16 year old girl is certainly able to be a terrorist. A 7 year old of either sex, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5368 "2025-10-10T13:39:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It blows your mind that a 17 year old or a person with XX chromosomes can be a terrorist? …I’m asking which of them _are_ terrorists. Feel free to name names. Which ones have been charged with terrorism and AREN’T being held in administrative detention? > [@Babale](#): > > No, I’m claiming that like Germany, Hamas tried to invade their neighbors and conquer them, failed miserably, and is now being occupied as a consequence during a transitionary stage while their neighbor makes sure they don’t invade again the moment the defending country leaves. So it’s Palestinian land. Giving Palestinian land back to Palestinians shouldn’t be controversial. > [@Babale](#): > > Oooh, don’t look up who the leader of the PA is or what his doctorate is in, if you don’t like leaders who are literal Nazis. I don’t recall saying I’m a fan of the leader of the PA. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m curious how old these children are. Because here i agree with Babale, a 16 year old girl is certainly able to be a terrorist. A 7 year old of either sex, not so much. In 2024 there were 460 Palestinian children being held in detention. > **[Palestinian Children in Israeli Military Detention Report | Save the Children NZ](https://www.savethechildren.org.nz/media-hub/palestinian-children-in-israeli-military-detention-report)** > > Rising numbers of Palestinians detained without charge in the Israel military system since 7 October have reported violence and abuse. They report treatment similar to what the recent flotilla reported, humiliation, inhumane conditions. _"The Palestinian Commission also said that conditions for children held in prisons have significantly deteriorated, with children who used to be housed with five detainees now sharing rooms with about 10 other detainees including adults, putting them at risk._ _Other child testimonies gathered by the organisations Defense for Children International (DCI) and YMCA - also shared with Save the Children - told of starvation, abuse and inhumane treatment with some children released with injuries and blood stained clothing._ _DCI, a non-government organisation that promotes and protects the human rights of Palestinian children, reported one incident in which Israeli forces made children hold an Israeli flag before ordering them back to their cells hunched over, beating and cursing them as they walked."_ _…_ _In December, [reports](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-62-enarhe) emerged of Palestinian boys as young as 15 being detained, stripped and moved from a school in Gaza to unknown locations._ If they are terrorists: then Israel needs to prove it. And even if they were: it doesn’t excuse the inhumane treatment. ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5369 "2025-10-10T13:47:56Z")
There’s some data about the ages here: [https://www.btselem.org/statistics/minors\_in\_custody](https://www.btselem.org/statistics/minors_in_custody) There has been a few under 14yo through the years. And also of relevance I think, p6 of the pdf linked there: [https://www.unicef.org/sop/documents/children-israeli-military-detention](https://www.unicef.org/sop/documents/children-israeli-military-detention) “In September 2009, in response to documentation of the prosecution of children as young as 12 in adult military courts, Israel established a juvenile military court. It is understood that this is the first and only juvenile military court in operation in the world. In fact, it uses the same facilities and court staff as the adult military court.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5370 "2025-10-10T13:48:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Which ones have been charged with terrorism and AREN’T being held in administrative detention? Sorry, these are not mutually exclusive categories. During wartime, terrorists may very well be held in administrative detention rather than being charged; I totally reject your false dichotomy. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m asking which of them _are_ terrorists. Feel free to name names. …Were the names of all of them released, or only the names of the 250 prisoners who were already convicted and sentenced to life in prison? Do _you_ have that list, or are you asking for things that you very well know are not publically available? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So it’s Palestinian land. Giving Palestinian land back to Palestinians shouldn’t be controversial. Giving German land back to Germans on June 7, 1944 could and should be _very_ controversial. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In 2024 there were 460 Palestinian children being held in detention. …so how old are they? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In December, [reports](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-62-enarhe) emerged of Palestinian boys as young as 15 being detained Ahhhh… 15. So, I’ll repeat @puzzlegal’s question: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m curious how old these children are. Because here i agree with Babale, a 16 year old girl is certainly able to be a terrorist. Is it mind-blowing for a boy “as young as 15” to be a terrorist? Is it mind-blowing for a female that age or older to be a terrorist? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > A 7 year old of either sex, not so much. Kids as young as 7 and even younger absolutely _are_ used in terror attacks, but I suppose that’s less an example of _them_ being terrorists and more an example of their parents or guardians being _incredibly_ abusive. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5371 "2025-10-10T13:50:02Z")
> [@BleizDu](#): > > There has been a few under 14yo through the years. If there have been “a few” under 14 “over the years”, what does that say about the vast majority of minors involved in the current peace deal? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5372 "2025-10-10T13:58:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > A 7 year old of either sex, not so much. > > Kids as young as 7 and even younger absolutely _are_ used in terror attacks, but I suppose that’s less an example of _them_ being terrorists and more an example of their parents or guardians being _incredibly_ abusive. 7 year olds mostly do what the adults who care for them tell them to do. A 7 year old used in a terror attack may be emotionally messed up if they survive physically intact, but i wouldn’t hold them culpable. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5373 "2025-10-10T13:59:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > During wartime, terrorists may very well be held in administrative detention rather than being charged; I totally reject your false dichotomy. …administrative detention didn’t start during this ‘war.’ > [@Babale](#): > > …Were the names of all of them released, or only the names of the 250 prisoners who were already convicted and sentenced to life in prison? Do _you_ have that list, or are you asking for things that you very well know are not publically available? I’m talking about children being held by Israel in general. It’s not as if they started this on October the 11th. > [@Babale](#): > > Giving German land back to Germans on June 7, 1944 could and should be _very_ controversial. Its _Palestinian land_. > [@Babale](#): > > Is it mind-blowing for a boy “as young as 15” to be a terrorist? Is it mind-blowing for a female that age or older to be a terrorist? What due process did this boy as young as fifteen go through? 15 year-olds are perfectly capable of being terrorists. But what process did they go through here? Because the issue isn’t just the age. People are detained without legal proceedings, without having the evidence against them revealed. That’s bad enough when you do it to adults. But to do it to children? Unconscionable. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5374 "2025-10-10T14:09:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > 7 year olds mostly do what the adults who care for them tell them to do. A 7 year old used in a terror attack may be emotionally messed up if they survive physically intact, but i wouldn’t hold them culpable. Yeah, that’s what I meant by that being less an example of a 7 year old terrorist and more an example of an incredibly abusive guardian. There was a Vice years and years ago where they went to Afghanistan, to a shelter for children who were trained to be used as suicide bombers but survived in one way or another. “Emotionally messed up” is an understatement… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …administrative detention didn’t start during this ‘war.’ …ok? That’s got nothing to do with whether the people who are being released now, who Hamas negotiated for specifically because they wanted them out, are terrorists or not. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its _Palestinian land_. And on September 11, when American forces reached German soil (obviously that’s the date to use, not D-Day!), that was _German_ land; but if someone told me that meant that the US was obligated to turn it over to Germany immediately, I’d call them a Nazi. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What due process did this boy as young as fifteen go through? 15 year-olds are perfectly capable of being terrorists. But what process did they go through here? If it’s not about their ages, why did you spend multiple posts incredulously repeating “BUT THEY’RE WOMEN AND CHILDREN” and only come off that point after it was proven to you that the vast majority of not all of the minors involved with this exchange are over 15? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But to do it to children? Unconscionable. What _I_ find unconscionable is using children as Hamas operatives. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5375 "2025-10-10T14:15:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …ok? That’s got nothing to do with whether the people who are being released now, who Hamas negotiated for specifically because they wanted them out, are terrorists or not. …most of them aren’t terrorists. > [@Babale](#): > > And on September 11, when American forces reached German soil (obviously that’s the date to use, not D-Day!), that was _German_ land; but if someone told me that meant that the US was obligated to turn it over to Germany immediately, I’d call them a Nazi. Its Palestinian land. It belongs to them. They get it back. > [@Babale](#): > > If it’s not about their ages, why did you spend multiple posts incredulously repeating “BUT THEY’RE WOMEN AND CHILDREN” and only come off that point after it was proven to you that the vast majority of not all of the minors involved with this exchange are over 15? What due process did they go through? Why are they detained? Which ones are actually terrorists? I’m all in favour of locking terrorists away. I just want to know which of these children are actually terrorists. > [@Babale](#): > > What _I_ find unconscionable is using children as Hamas operatives. YMMV. And which ones in detention did Hamas use as operatives? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5376 "2025-10-10T14:38:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …most of them aren’t terrorists. _Press X to doubt._ > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its Palestinian land. It belongs to them. They get it back. So, do you agree with the statement that on September 12, 1944, America should have withdrawn from Germany and returned all German land to Germany because “It’s (sic) German land. It belongs to them. They get it back.”? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What due process did they go through? Why are they detained? Which ones are actually terrorists? Why did you move the goalposts away from the “but they’re children and women” talking point? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5377 "2025-10-10T14:50:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _Press X to doubt._ …[https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-subjected](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-subjected) _"The UN Human Rights Office today published a [report](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/reports/thematic-report-detention-context-escalation-hostilities-gaza-october-2023-june) on arbitrary, prolonged and incommunicado detention by Israeli authorities, affecting thousands of Palestinians since last October. The report also covers allegations of torture and other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, including sexual abuse of women and men._ _Since 7 October, thousands of Palestinians - including medical staff, patients and residents fleeing the conflict, as well as captured fighters - have been taken from Gaza to Israel, usually shackled and blindfolded. Thousands more have been detained in the West Bank and Israel. They have generally been held in secret, without being given a reason for their detention, access to a lawyer or effective judicial review, the report states._ _…_ _The staggering number of men, women, children, doctors, journalists and human rights defenders detained since 7 October, most of them without charge or trial and held in deplorable conditions, along with reports of ill-treatment and torture and violation of due process guarantees, raises serious concerns regarding the arbitrariness and the fundamentally punitive nature of such arrests and detention, said UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk."_ > [@Babale](#): > > So, do you agree with the statement that on September 12, 1944, America should have withdrawn from Germany and returned all German land to Germany because “It’s (sic) German land. It belongs to them. They get it back.”? I agree with the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice “that the continued presence of Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory is illegal.” > **[Summary of the Advisory Opinion of 19 July 2024 | INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE](https://www.icj-cij.org/node/204176)** > [@Babale](#): > > Why did you move the goalposts away from the “but they’re children and women” talking point? The goalposts haven’t moved. What due process did the children go through? Why were the children detained? Which one of the children are actually terrorists? The same goes for the women held in detention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=261) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=263)