# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 266
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5438 "2025-11-21T22:28:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1p07qp5/former_obama_speechwriter_sarah_hurwitz_speaking/) > > Former Obama speechwriter Sarah Hurwitz says Holocaust education has backfired in part because people see Gazan civilians as victims: “They think the lesson of the Holocaust is…you fight the big powerful people hurting the weak people.” > > My God. I guess “never again” doesn’t apply if some of the “weak people” being massacred did bad things? …and here’s a passionate and excellent evisceration of Hurwitz’s ghoulish, and IMO, absolutely obscene rhetoric: > **[Sarah Hurwitz Profanes the Holocaust](https://www.forever-wars.com/sarah-hurwitz-profanes-the-holocaust/)** > > Holocaust education has worked too well for the Obama speechwriter, since when she rationalizes Israel's genocide, "I sound obscene." Maybe sit with that, Sarah > It is not ignorance that drives the comparison of the genocide Israel inflicts upon Palestine to the Holocaust. It is not TikTok smashing anyone’s brain. It is historical memory. And that historical memory, which Hurwitz wants more than anything not to confront, is triggered by Israeli behavior. The behavior of powerful Israelis hurting weak, skinny Palestinians. Of gleefully raiding their lingerie drawers, bombing their hospitals, destroying their cultural symbols, [raping them in captivity](https://pchrgaza.org/pchr-documents-testimonies-of-systematic-rape-and-sexual-torture-in-israeli-detention-against-released-palestinian-detainees/?ref=forever-wars.com), turning them [into numbers](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/?ref=forever-wars.com) for industrial-scale murder. Of describing their [children as the enemy](https://www.facebook.com/trtworld/videos/the-enemy-is-not-hamas-every-child-every-baby-in-gaza-is-an-enemy-former-member-/988158859798297/). > What Hurwitz objects to is that Holocaust education _works._ She is not upset that TikTok is driving misperceptions of the genocide. She is upset that the various social media vectors through which people hear directly from Palestinians drive _accurate_ perceptions of the genocide. She is upset that those perceptions are unavoidable _because_ of Holocaust education. Fearful of activating antisemitism, she doesn’t want Israelis, or any Jews, to be thought of as rapacious murderers. I sympathize. But the only way that will happen is for Israel, whose flag displays the Star of David, to stop murdering Palestinians (and Lebanese, and Syrians, and Iranians, and Yemenis, and and and), and for Jewish institutions beyond Israel to stop rationalizing it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5439 "2025-12-02T14:54:41Z")
“Anti-semitism” is increasingly used against entirely reasonable criticisms of Israeli policy, or advocacy for Gazan/Palestinian human rights: > **[StopAntisemitism’s ‘Antisemite of the Year’ finalists include Tucker Carlson...](https://www.jta.org/2025/12/01/united-states/stopantisemitisms-antisemite-of-the-year-finalists-include-tucker-carlson-and-ms-rachel-but-not-nick-fuentes)** > > “Why wasn’t I nominated?" Fuentes asked. Ms Rachel has never said a single thing even remotely anti-semitic, and organizations like “StopAntisemitism” are doing serious long term damage to Jewish safety around the world by trivializing the issue. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5440 "2025-12-02T21:12:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ms Rachel has never said a single thing even remotely anti-semitic, and organizations like “StopAntisemitism” are doing serious long term damage to Jewish safety around the world by trivializing the issue. She is openly and loudly pro-children of Gaza- which some consider ‘antisemitism”. I do not. Altho I in general support Israel, I am loud in my criticism of that crook Netanyahu, and some of his policies. Does that make me an “antisemite” ? But yeah, we do that all the time, calling people “pedophiles”, “Fascists” and overusing the term “genocide”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5441 "2025-12-03T06:34:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > overusing the term “genocide”. Why, whatever could this coy statement mean? \s ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5442 "2025-12-03T17:35:49Z")
Article explaining that even by its own definitions, Israel has utterly failed in Gaza, at best achieving some variation of the long term status quo, with Hamas in power, albeit over a smaller portion of Gaza amidst the devastation the IDF caused. And it only cost tens of thousands of innocent lives, plus the complete self-induced demolition of the two party consensus in the US to favor Israel over Palestinians! What a bargain! > **[Netanyahu Is Still Following the Same Failed Gaza Strategy](https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/12/03/gaza-israel-palestine-ceasefire-trump-netanyahu-hamas/)** > > Two years of war have brought tactical changes and immense suffering, but the political status quo endures. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5443 "2025-12-03T22:49:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why, whatever could this coy statement mean? It means that calling the war in Gaza “genocide” is and was a baseless smear campaign boosted by Russian propagandists. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5444 "2025-12-03T23:33:19Z")
Reminder: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Moderating > > > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > > > Ok but your terminology is opinion not fact > > I think we’ve thrashed the definition of “genocide” to death in this thread, and it’s not something we are going to agree on, and it’s also maybe not relevant if “killing this many civilians and destroying the infrastructure in that way” is “genocide”. I’d like to request that > > 1. folks avoid the use of the word “genocide”. There are lots of other words to describe what the IDF is doing in Gaza. > 2. if the word “genocide” is used, just report it, and don’t argue over it. > 3. and of course, please feel free to use the pit thread if you find that restriction overly limiting. That was a long time ago, so no warnings, and no singling out posters. But this thread should be used to talk about the actual situation, and not to endlessly argue the definition of “genocide". ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2025, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5445 "2025-12-06T00:58:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Article explaining that even by its own definitions, Israel has utterly failed in Gaza I think you have that backwards. Hamas has utterly failed in Gaza at the cost of tens of thousands of the people they’re supposed to represent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2025, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5446 "2025-12-06T01:35:58Z")
Hamas and this Israeli government are functionally allies - they both want bloodshed forever; they both want to prevent two states; they are both enemies of peace. This Israeli government has utterly failed in its stated goals to defeat Hamas, but in their above shared goals with Hamas, they’ve both been very successful. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2025, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5447 "2025-12-06T01:54:36Z")
I agree, and I’ve said this many times myself. Netanyahu & his ministers and Hamas deserve each other. They each justify the others’ existence. And please note I did not say Israelis and Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5448 "2025-12-06T14:40:17Z")
[![](https://forums.talkingpointsmemo.com/uploads/default/original/4X/6/6/f/66f22961e6b2cbd75ce600de6f08c75a81708072.webp) ](https://forums.talkingpointsmemo.com/uploads/default/original/4X/6/6/f/66f22961e6b2cbd75ce600de6f08c75a81708072.webp) Israeli settler attacks on Palestinian farmers have ramped up, year after year, with no sign of stopping. And what is the Israeli government doing about this? Nothing. This Israeli government is _much worse_, in terms of violence and bloodshed of civilians (directed by or tolerated by the government) than Apartheid South Africa or even Jim Crow America, despite being a much smaller country. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5449 "2025-12-07T11:03:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/comments/1p07qp5/former_obama_speechwriter_sarah_hurwitz_speaking/) > > Former Obama speechwriter Sarah Hurwitz says Holocaust education has backfired in part because people see Gazan civilians as victims: “They think the lesson of the Holocaust is…you fight the big powerful people hurting the weak people.” > > My God. I guess “never again” doesn’t apply if some of the “weak people” being massacred did bad things? This incident continues to be all over lefty social media like Bluesky, but I’ve been looking and googling for actual defenses of her words and, so far, I can’t find any except some very vague, milquetoast insistences that her words were misunderstood (without actual explanation), and that actually, if you know her, Hurwitz is a wonderful and compassionate person. Has anyone seen anything else? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5450 "2025-12-07T11:06:07Z")
And in addition to Hurwitz, Hillary Clinton is now repeating the same sentiment nearly verbatim - insisting that young people are turning against Israel because of some sinister social media campaign, rather then, you know, the IDF killing thousands and thousands of children: > **[Hillary Clinton Complains Social Media is Making Young People Pro-Palestine](https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/hillary-clinton-says-young-americans-021252716.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9nby5ic2t5LmFwcC8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFY0FRnUiJ6TwuMcOrHcOBbX0FE41BeH0BIBJiwUy_BiQDvAaMCiculOv4LDQWPV63ahCmKKiXs_9CtGQaxWsnT2qJhA9_Q5Ov97PbkGnbw5LXkxKprBWUuTmjvOT2Ye5xz1DHsa_y8rOQKzs3ggRupPKLIgBktWBpgs8BavPCpT)** > > Clinton complained young Americans were becoming sympathetic towards Palestinians because they watch "totally made up" videos on social media. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5451 "2025-12-07T11:35:13Z")
It’s _because_ of a social media campaign that people believe “the IDF is killing thousands and thousands of children”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5452 "2025-12-07T11:40:25Z")
AFAICT, there’s no controversy, even from the IDF, that they have killed several thousand Gazan children: > **[Casualties of the Gaza war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war?wprov=sfla1)** > > As of 19 November 2025\[update\], over 72,500 people (70,525 Palestinians and 2,109 Israelis\[c\]) have been reported killed in the Gaza war according to the Gaza Health Ministry (GHM) and Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, including 248 journalists and media workers,\[d\] 120 academics, and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, a number that includes 179 employees of UNRWA. Scholars have estimated 80% of Palestinians killed are civilians. A study by OHCHR, which verified ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5453 "2025-12-07T13:45:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > AFAICT, there’s no controversy, even from the IDF, that they have killed several thousand Gazan children: What the propaganda campaign has been so effective at obfuscating is that Israeli strikes have been on legitimate military target, and that the blame for those deaths lies with Hamas for choosing to fight from behind civilians. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s _because_ of a social media campaign that people believe “the IDF is killing thousands and thousands of children”. Clearly, a social media campaign by a foreign adversery is actually totally based if it’s pushing a viewpoint you agree with politically; didn’t you learn anything from the Republican reaction to Russiagate? We should _thank_ Qatar, Russia, Iran, and China for sending us TikTok reels that unveil the TRUTH!!! (/s, obviously) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5454 "2025-12-07T13:47:10Z")
Of course – we should accept Israeli propaganda about why it was _good and necessary_ to kill those children, not other “propaganda” that claims that killing children is very, very bad! And (like Hurwitz and Hillary Clinton insist) we should chastise those who have the pure, evil, anti-semitism-driven gall to dare to _show the factual suffering and death caused by IDF operations in Gaza_! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5455 "2025-12-07T13:56:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course – we should accept Israeli propaganda about why it was _good and necessary_ to kill those children, not other “propaganda” that claims that killing children is very, very bad! No, they only claim that killing _some_ children is very very bad; as Hasan Piker points out, (Israeli) “babies can be settlers too”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5456 "2025-12-07T14:00:37Z")
Sounds like you could be friends – you could come together on your shared willingness to rationalize and justify killing children. I’ll give you this, though – at least, unlike Smapti, you’re willing to admit that the IDF is killing oodles of children. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5457 "2025-12-07T14:04:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll give you this, though – at least, unlike Smapti, you’re willing to admit that the IDF is killing oodles of children. If Hamas puts their rockets behind kids then Hamas is the one responsible for the deaths of children. Period, end of story. You can keep distracting from that fact as much as you’d like, but it remains true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=265) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=267)