# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 268
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5478 "2025-12-07T18:54:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There is no “Palestinian leadership” (thanks to Netanyahu, for years, weakening every alternative to Hamas). Only Hamas, which yes, are also incompetent, amoral, and supremacist/openly genocidal liars. Hamas IS the Palestinian leadership, in Gaza. Abbas (who has a literal PhD in Holocaust denial) is the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank. It is _incredibly_ silly to strip the Palestinian people of all agency by claiming that they “have no leadership” when they very clearly do. And Hamas did not take over Gaza “thanks to” Netanyahu. That’s ridiculous revisionist history. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And funny how you ignore all the other facts. You don’t dispute any of these facts. What “facts”? That some soldiers said things to the press? Yes, they did. Does that indicate that the things they said happened actually happened? I’m not nearly as confident in that as you seem to be. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yet somehow you think it’s dishonest or delusional to feel differently than you do _even accepting the facts from my previous post_. I never said that you are dishonest. And I wouldn’t say that you’re delusional so much as deluded by intentionally bad actors. And just because I don’t choose to argue over every incorrect thing you say does not mean I concede that you are right on the facts; it’s just that there’s no point trying to reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into, and your position that the IDF should always be assumed to be lying is not a reasoned one. So I see no point in engaging on that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5479 "2025-12-07T18:57:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What “facts”? That some soldiers said things to the press? Yes, they did. Does that indicate that the things they said happened actually happened? I’m not nearly as confident in that as you seem to be. So that’s it. That’s the difference. We can stop the discussion – this is why we disagree so strongly. Undoubtedly there are several similar examples in which you doubt reports from the media that I think are likely correct. As for the IDF, I don’t think they’re necessarily always lying, but based on their recent history, they’re about as trustworthy as Hamas, or the Trump administration, or the Netanyahu administration – sometimes they tell the truth, but there’s no way to know without corroborating evidence, so their independent, unsupported reports should be ignored until there’s independent supporting evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5480 "2025-12-07T19:01:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Undoubtedly there are several similar examples in which you doubt reports from the media that I think are likely correct. Well, yeah, obviously. Like the time that the media reported that Israel bombed a hospital and destroyed it killing 500 people, and then it turned out that all elements of the story were false: it was a PIJ rocket that misfired and hit a _parking lot_, causing no damage at all to the “destroyed” hospital and killing a much smaller number of people who were out in said parking lot. It’s like the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect, but ironically Palestine is the example Crichton gives of a topic you know nothing about and turn the page to, when for me it’s the topic I notice all the “wet sidewalks cause rain” stories with. > **[Gell-Mann amnesia effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect)** > > The Gell-Mann amnesia effect is a cognitive bias describing the tendency of individuals to critically assess media reports in a domain they are knowledgeable about, yet continue to trust reporting in other areas despite recognizing similar potential inaccuracies. > The concept was coined by novelist Michael Crichton in a 2002 speech, naming it after Murray Gell-Mann, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist with whom he had discussed the phenomenon. > > Crichton first described the "Murray Gell-Mann Amnesi... > [@](#): > > Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. > > In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story—and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read with renewed interest as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about far-off Palestine than it was about the story you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5481 "2025-12-07T19:10:13Z")
None of this has anything to with anything I’ve posted, unless you have a cite handy. I’ve been very specific about the incidents and reports on which my opinion is based. Yes, those reports in which multiple IDF members, and at least one US merc, report witnessing or being ordered to do atrocities are a HUGE part of my view. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5482 "2025-12-07T19:24:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of this has anything to with anything I’ve posted, unless you have a cite handy. You said: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Undoubtedly there are several similar examples in which you doubt reports from the media that I think are likely correct. That’s just one of many, many examples where what the media said, and not just one outlet but what the media concensus was, ended up being _exceedingly, disastrously wrong_ in a way that _continues_ to fuck with the public’s (already pretty shitty) understanding of the conflict to this day. I don’t know if that’s still a story you consider to be likely correct" - I’d really hope not, since most reputable sources did issue corrections, but of course, far fewer people ever see a correction in these scenarios, so I don’t take it for granted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5483 "2025-12-07T19:25:21Z")
Unless you have information discrediting any of the incidents that I specifically called out, then it’s irrelevant to what I’ve said. I could similarly point out multiple times in which subsequent media reports demonstrated that the IDF’s initial reports after a particular incident were “exceedingly, disastrously wrong” that undoubtedly “fucked with the public’s understanding of the conflict”, but unless it’s a report that you’ve specifically relied upon, it would be irrelevant to this particular discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5484 "2025-12-07T19:38:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unless you have information discrediting any of the incidents that I specifically called out, then it’s irrelevant to what I’ve said. I don’t know which specific example you’re talking about. Since you mentioned an American mercenary, is this regarding the GHF security forces? Or a different incident? From what I’ve seen when soldiers spoke to the press, just because a soldier doesn’t like what they were ordered to do does not mean a war crime occurred. But I don’t know which supposed example you mean. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5485 "2025-12-07T19:52:54Z")
The US merc I’m talking about is Lt. Col Anthony Aguilar. The IDF members I’m referring to are the ones that told Haaretz they were ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near food distribution sites in Gaza, even when no threat was present. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5486 "2025-12-07T19:53:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > AFAICT, there’s no controversy, even from the IDF, that they have killed several thousand Gazan children: How many were recruited as Terrorist/Hamas soldiers? If a 17 yo has a bomb or an AK 47 working for Hamas- are those still “children”? Not to me. > [@Babale](#): > > Obviously not; there are other valid military targets than just rockets, so sometimes they were above a Hamas HQ or any of a number of other valid military targets. > > Also, many Hamas fighters are under 18, so just because someone is a “child” doesn’t mean that they’re a civilian; some of the under 18 casualties are in fact from combatants. > > And finally, like in any other war in history, there are accidents as well. Right. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And if the IDF says so, that’s good enough! J > **[AHRC46NGO42\_050321.pdf](https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/AHRC46NGO42_050321.pdf)** > > 123.54 KB [https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736](https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736) > **[Israel and Hamas added to UN list for violating children's rights](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223vlerdvo)** > > The UN adds Israel and Hamas for the first time to its list of offenders for violating children’s rights. There is the UN and others. > [@Babale](#): > > So you agree that Al Jazeera is an unreliable source? In areas where they have their bias, definitely. > [@Babale](#): > > And Hamas did not take over Gaza “thanks to” Netanyahu. That’s ridiculous revisionist history. OTOH, that crook Netanyahu has made their recruiting job easier. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5487 "2025-12-07T19:55:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How many were recruited as Terrorist/Hamas soldiers? If a 17 yo has a bomb or an AK 47 working for Hamas- are those still “children”? Not to me. No idea. There’s no good information out there – just baseless propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5488 "2025-12-07T19:55:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The US merc I’m talking about is Lt. Col Anthony Aguilar. The IDF members I’m referring to are the ones that told Haaretz they were ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near food distribution sites in Gaza, even when no threat was present. Ok, so this IS about the GHF shooting? How did you determine that “no threat was present”? I read the same testimony and that’s not at all the conclusion I came away with. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5489 "2025-12-07T20:00:39Z")
I’m not making any determinations – just adding up all the facts. And adding them all up – these reports aren’t proof of atrocities, but a bunch of IDF members and one US merc reporting witnessing or being ordered to conduct atrocities counts as strong evidence of atrocities – leads me to conclude it’s much more likely than not that the IDF (and affiliated organizations) is overseeing atrocities, and attempting to hide evidence of such atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5490 "2025-12-07T20:01:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No idea. There’s no good information out there – just baseless propaganda. The UN? BBC? “Baseless propaganda”?? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5491 "2025-12-07T20:01:58Z")
You asked “how many”. The specific number is unknowable right now. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5492 "2025-12-07T20:05:08Z")
Anyways, I think you misidentify our core disagreement. Factual analysis of individual situations doesn’t matter in the least if this is your starting point: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There is no “Palestinian leadership” (thanks to Netanyahu, for years, weakening every alternative to Hamas). Yes, if Palestinians have absolutely no agency and everything they do is Bibi’s fault, then I guess Israel is the root of all evil. I just don’t agree with that premise. The Palestinian people have agency, like all other human beings on the planet, and they are responsible for the leaders they put into power and the actions of those leaders. Hamas aren’t space aliens; they ARE the Palestinian leadership. If there’s no such thing as Palestinian Leadership because Bibi and we have to analyze the conflict through a lens where Israel has all the agency and Palestine has none, then _of course_ we will come to different conclusions. If Hamas set off a nuke in Yel Aviv, or a scifi hyper bomb that set off a chain reaction and destroyed all life on Earth, it would still be Israel and Bibi’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5493 "2025-12-07T20:06:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You asked “how many”. The specific number is unknowable right now. How convenient! So we can just call them all “children” and pretend that Israel is sniping toddlers. Maybe if the truth is unknowable then repeating a number of “dead children” over and over is the actual baseless propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5494 "2025-12-07T20:06:59Z")
Then you totally misinterpreted what I said. Right now, functionally speaking, the leadership of Palestinians is Netanyahu and the IDF – they control the WB and most of Gaza right now. Under invasion and occupation, Palestinians have virtually no functioning “leadership”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5495 "2025-12-07T20:07:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right now, functionally speaking, the leadership of Palestinians is Netanyahu and the IDF – they control the WB and most of Gaza right now. This is completely disconnected from reality. Palestinians have shitty leaders. They don’t have _no_ leaders, nor can they claim to have no agency over their own actions or the actions taken by their leaders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5496 "2025-12-07T20:09:09Z")
Which part? Do you assert that Israel does NOT control the WB and most of Gaza right now? As for agency, Palestinians have it like anyone. Each Palestinian is responsible for their own actions. The vast majority haven’t done anything of any significance wrong towards Israel. Certainly all of the children and the vast majority of the civilians. I don’t know exactly how the statistics would break down, but I believe the majority, and maybe a large majority, of present-day Palestinians (including obviously all of them in the WB) had nothing to do with electing Hamas 20 years ago. Barring a misunderstanding of the facts, with that in mind, most Palestinians have no responsibility at all for the actions of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2025, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5497 "2025-12-07T20:15:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s just one of many, many examples where what the media said, Then directly quote the media involved, instead of using unattributed stories to support other unattributed stories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=267) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=269)