# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 273
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5578 "2025-12-11T23:35:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There is no “Palestinian leadership” (thanks to Netanyahu, for years, weakening every alternative to Hamas). Only Hamas, which yes, are also incompetent, amoral, and supremacist/openly genocidal liars. WOW. Blaming Israel for Hamas is epic. Hamas isn’t some isolated group of thugs. They’re the intertwined fabric of Gazan citizenry. But instead of promoting a stable productive future they’ve spent their time tunneling in preparation for the next exchange in an unending war. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5579 "2025-12-12T00:06:02Z")
Netanyahu has told his allies that Israel should help Hamas at the expense of moderate Palestinian groups because Hamas opposes a two state solution. Netanyahu and Hamas are functionally allies against peace and against two states. They both want endless war. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5580 "2025-12-12T01:04:24Z")
Uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5581 "2025-12-12T01:08:03Z")
Hard facts can be difficult to face. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5582 "2025-12-12T01:20:54Z")
I thought that he chose to back Hamas instead of the PLO, which didn’t seem terribly “moderate” at the time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5583 "2025-12-12T01:26:33Z")
Palestinian Authority (which is very “moderate”, at least compared to Hamas), not PLO. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5584 "2025-12-12T01:43:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I thought that he chose to back Hamas instead of the PLO, which didn’t seem terribly “moderate” at the time. The truth, of course, is that he didn’t back Hamas over anyone. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Palestinian Authority (which is very “moderate”, at least compared to Hamas), not PLO. Of course, the trick here is obviously clear. Netanyahu didn’t “choose Hamas over the PA” because there _was no choice to make_. Hamas was in charge of Gaza, and Netanyahu could either choose to allow the Qatari aid into Gaza to be distributed by Hamas, or he could have blocked the aid entirely (at which point he’d have been accused of starving Gaza by the same people who criticize him for the decision he _did_ make). It’s a neat trick. He “chose” not to give the money to the Palestinian Authority in Gaza because, of course, the Palestinian Authority _is not in Gaza_. But what percent of Americans know that? 10%? Less? So “Netanyahu chose Hamas over the PA!” sounds very convincing to the uninformed. Now, is there a way in which Netanyahu _could have_ chosen to give the aid money to the PA in Gaza? Yes - if he first invaded Gaza and then put the PA in charge. In hindsight, I agree - that _would_ have been a better idea than giving Hamas the money. But no one could have known that at the time and if he randomly decided to take us into a ground war in Gaza he’d have lost his office immediately. (Actually, kind of a win.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5585 "2025-12-12T01:52:21Z")
Have Gaza and the West Bank always had separate governments? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5586 "2025-12-12T01:57:08Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Have Gaza and the West Bank always had separate governments Only since 2007. > **[Battle of Gaza (2007)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007))** > > The Battle of Gaza, also known as the Gaza civil war, was a brief civil war between Fatah and Hamas that took place in the Gaza Strip from 10 to 15 June 2007. It was a prominent event in the Fatah–Hamas conflict, centered on the struggle for power after the fall of the National Unity Government between Hamas and Fatah, which was dissolved shortly afterwards. This led to the de facto division of the Palestinian territories into two entities: the West Bank governed by the Palestinian National Au... ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5587 "2025-12-12T01:58:59Z")
From the article I cited: > As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state. So yes, Netanyahu favored keeping Hamas strong over more moderate Palestinian groups in order to reduce the likelihood of a Palestinian state. Non paywall version of the article: [https://archive.ph/dFYSu](https://archive.ph/dFYSu) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5588 "2025-12-12T02:18:45Z")
Notice how we went from _Netanyahu chose to build Hamas because he wants endless war_ all the way to _A reporter claims that Netanyahu told him he agreed to let the Qatari aid into Gaza because he thought it would weaken his rival factions_… Even if Netanyahu did tell a reporter this, it doesn’t change the fact that whatever justification he used for it, he had _no one to give the money to in Gaza EXCEPT Hamas_. It was a choice between Hamas or no aid, not Hamas vs the PA or Hamas vs the PLO or… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5589 "2025-12-12T02:26:50Z")
I keep forgetting that Netanyahu is a pure and honest and decent man of virtue, not a lying scumbag willing to do anything up to and including cause the death of innocent children in order to stay in power. He deserves every benefit of the doubt. How stupid of me! I must be thinking too simply - Netanyahu said it was important to keep Hamas strong, and then after years and years of Bibi in power in Israel, Hamas remains strong and got even stronger… I guess those two things had nothing to do with each other. Just coincidence! Nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5590 "2025-12-12T02:53:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I keep forgetting that Netanyahu is a pure and honest and decent man of virtue, Nah, he’s a corrupt piece of shit who belongs in prison for his many, many corrupt dealings with businessmen, journalists, and other politicians. I’ve never said otherwise. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I must be thinking too simply - Netanyahu said it was important to keep Hamas strong, and then after years and years of Bibi in power in Israel, Hamas remains strong and got even stronger… I guess those two things had nothing to do with each other. Just coincidence! Nothing to see here. You’re not thinking too simply, you’re hyper complicating and obfuscating from a simple fact: in the context of the Qatari aid money you’re so intrigued by, at no point in time did Netanyahu choose Hamas over the PA, because the money was bound for Gaza and the PA had not been in Gaza for years by that point. Period, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5591 "2025-12-12T03:10:54Z")
And is there no movement of money between Gaza and the West Bank? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5592 "2025-12-12T03:23:40Z")
There is some, for example the PA makes Martyr Fund payments to Gazans who murdered Israelis and ended up in jail (or to their families if they are dead) but this goes through Hamas, because again, they are the only real authority in the Strip. Before the war, if Israel wanted aid to go into Gaza, it had to go through Hamas at some point in the process. Again, in hindsight, that should never have been the case and we should have gone in full force in 2008, or even earlier when Hamas first murdered the opposition and took over. It would have been a hell of a lot easier without 20 years of tunnels, that’s for fucking sure. But I remember my own thinking at the time, and in 2014. The idea of going back in seemed completely unacceptable, mostly because the way it would go (and the way it would play in the international media) was entirely predictable. It would have gone exactly like it’s going now. The only difference between how I thought now and how I feel then, is that back then I thought if we just continued to limit our responses and guard the border eventually the situation would deescalate and Hamas would lose control or moderate. There was some hope of a resolution other than all our war. Hamas didn’t moderate, of course, and they never came close to losing control of Gaza. Instead, they got as heavily militarized as they possibly could, and then they attacked. And they made it clear that all the talk we’d been dismissing for 20 years because they’d bloviate about destroying us but then come to the table, was not just talk; it was exactly how they really thought. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5593 "2025-12-12T06:13:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and then after years and years of Bibi in power in Israel, Hamas remains strong and got even stronger… I guess those two things had nothing to do with each other. Well there’s just that little thing about Iran funding them. I guess that has nothing to do with how they’re ACTUALLY FUNDED. So unless you have a check sent to Hamas with Netanyahu’s proverbial signature on it you really need to walk away from your premise that he’s supporting Hamas. Basically if he allows food in he’s supporting Hamas and if he cuts off food he’s committing genocide. This is a mobius strip train of thought. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5594 "2025-12-12T10:35:20Z")
I’m just following the reporting, and Netanyahu’s words. He wanted Hamas to stay strong. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5595 "2025-12-12T12:08:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Before the war, if Israel wanted aid to go into Gaza, it had to go through Hamas at some point in the process. This is not how “aid” works in most of the world, and i suspect that it didn’t have to work that way in Gaza either. I’ve seen the claims that Israel washed to keep the Palestinians divided a number of times, and frankly, that’s looking awfully plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5596 "2025-12-12T13:28:06Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is not how “aid” works in most of the world, and i suspect that it didn’t have to work that way in Gaza either. Really? Where does one country distribute aid in another country or independently ruled territory against the will of the group in charge of the second place? I’m not aware of any place where that’s the case. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’ve seen the claims that Israel washed to keep the Palestinians divided a number of times, …ok? Do you see that “Netanyahu wants the Palestinians divided” is an _incredibly_ different claim than “Netanyahu built Hamas up and chose Hamas over the PA”? Two things can be true at once: Netanyahu never had a choice between the PA and Hamas, he had a choice between giving the money to Hamas or withholding it completely And Netanyahu saw the divide between Hamas and the PA as beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5597 "2025-12-12T13:32:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > This is not how “aid” works in most of the world, and i suspect that it didn’t have to work that way in Gaza either. > > Really? Where does one country distribute aid in another country or independently ruled territory against the will of the group in charge of the second place? I’m not aware of any place where that’s the case. Well, when i was a kid, there was a whole network to smuggle Bibles to Soviet Jews. So it can certainly happen. And it’s easier to transfer money than Bibles. But also, most countries don’t have huge objections to outsiders giving money or food directly to their citizens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=272) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=274)