# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 274
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5598 "2025-12-12T13:36:01Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, when i was a kid, there was a whole network to smuggle Bibles to Soviet Jews. So it can certainly happen. And it’s easier to transfer money than Bibles So your suggestion is that Israel should have smuggled aid to anti Hamas groups operating within the Strip? That seems silly when Israel could just invade and fight Hamas. Obviously groups that wanted Soviet Jews to have Bibles weren’t capable of going toe to toe with the USSR, but the dynamics here are just a _bit_ different. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But also, most countries don’t have huge objections to outsiders giving money or food directly to their citizens. Say hi to Hamas! They object to you giving money and food directly to their citizens and demand it go through them instead. Most countries also don’t put their military facilities underneath civilian infrastructure to ensure that the highest possible number of them die in a war to make the other side look bad on the world stage, but Hamas does exactly that. Hamas is not _most countries_. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5599 "2025-12-12T13:42:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So your suggestion is that Israel should have smuggled aid to anti Hamas groups operating within the Strip? No, my suggestion is that Qatar could probably have gotten aid to Gazans without giving it to Hamas. Would some have been funneled off? No doubt. Bribes might have been paid, … But i find it implausible that it couldn’t possibly have been done, especially early on, when Bibi is accused of intentionally choosing to strengthen Hamas to split up the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5600 "2025-12-12T13:49:36Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No, my suggestion is that Qatar could probably have gotten aid to Gazans without giving it to Hamas. …how? Hamas is the sole authority in Gaza since their takeover in 2007 (when Olmert was PM), and they managed all the aid distribution in Gaza, including controlling where and how the UNRWA operated. How exactly do you propose Qatar could have gotten aid to Gazans without giving it to Hamas? Armed Qatari guards? You’ve _seen_ what a headache distributing food without Hamas’ cooperation has been - that’s what the GHF has been doing. After a Qatari position is stormed and they either shoot all their attackers or get overrun, you think they’d continue distributing aid into Gaza without Hamas’ cooperation? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > when Bibi is accused of intentionally choosing to strengthen Hamas to split up the Palestinians. I’m sure Bibi _did_ do what he could to split up the Palestinians further than they’d already split up themselves; that’s just basic good strategy. You always want your opponents divided. I support sowing division among MAGA, or among the Russian invaders of Ukraine, and so on. Right now, any division that can be created between Hamas and the PA, or between Hamas and the other militant groups in Gaza, is a _good_ thing. Give me more division! What he _did not_ do was _choose Hamas over another group_. He never _had_ a choice when it came to who was in charge of Gaza, because any choice but Hamas would have required exactly what we see now: a ground invasion. Eta: also, this bit: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Would some have been funneled off? No doubt. Bribes might have been paid, … Is a misunderstanding of my point. The problem isn’t that Hamas is corrupt and steals aid to enrich themselves (they do, their leadership is all millionaires (and some dead millionaires)), it’s not about stealing money, it’s about _power_. The problem is that when Hamas controls aid distribution, even when the aid gets where it is going and when a group like UNRWA is allowed to handle the logistics of actual distribution, when the whole process is still controlled by Hamas, they draw legitimacy and consolidate control over the Strip by directing where the aid goes. And there’s no way to stop _that_ short of taking over aid distribution from them; and there’s no way to do _that_ short of coming in with guns, distributing aid, and shooting any Hamasnik who tried to stop you And until October 7, there was no one - not Israel and certainly not _Qatar_ - who was willing to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5601 "2025-12-12T15:10:46Z")
Seems like the Netanyahu defenders here are hyperfocusing on this issue of Qatari aid in order to obfuscate the broader picture, which is that Netanyahu has, _in general_, pursued a strategic policy of playing Hamas and the PA off against each other, as opposed to strongly supporting the PA’s claim to be the legitimate government of Palestine, giving them increasing amounts of autonomy in the West Bank and helping them re-establish control over Gaza. You may think that was a good or at least defensible choice, but it’s not the case that had no choice to make at all. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5602 "2025-12-12T15:21:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The idea of going back in seemed completely unacceptable, mostly because the way it would go (and the way it would play in the international media) was entirely predictable. It would have gone exactly like it’s going now. Yes, you’ve killed thousands of innocent people while turning global public opinion decisively against you, even to the point of straining your relationship with your most reliable ally. I would agree that’s entirely unacceptable, and an entirely predictable result of the decision to invade Gaza. The October 7 attacks were horrific atrocities, but the death toll was in the low four figures and they succeeded in holding a tiny sliver of Israeli territory for a few days. Hamas didn’t come close to demonstrating the potential ability to “destroy Israel”. This was not some new existential threat that gave Israel no possible option other than to do the obviously idiotic thing with predictably disastrous consequences, _which was exactly what Hamas wanted them to do._ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5603 "2025-12-12T15:22:11Z")
Right exactly. He’s been in power for a long time. Undoubtedly there were several decisions he could have made, including just what to say publicly, that would end up helping or hurting Hamas, the PA, and other Palestinian organizations. Based on reporting and actual events, it’s more than reasonable to believe that he has deliberately favored Hamas, and subtly assisted Hamas, and done the opposite for their less extreme rivals, because he thought that was best to avoid two states. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5604 "2025-12-12T15:29:17Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Seems like the Netanyahu defenders here are hyperfocusing on this issue of Qatari aid in order to obfuscate the broader picture, which is that Netanyahu has, _in general_, pursued a strategic policy of playing Hamas and the PA off against each other, as opposed to strongly supporting the PA’s claim to be the legitimate government of Palestine, giving them increasing amounts of autonomy in the West Bank and helping them re-establish control over Gaza I’m not _defending_ Netanyahu, I’m debunking the conspiracy theory that he or Israel is behind the rise of Hamas. There’s plenty you can criticize him for. Plenty that he belongs in jail for but he is not responsible for Gazans deciding to put Hamas in charge of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5605 "2025-12-12T15:30:30Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The October 7 attacks were horrific atrocities, but the death toll was in the low four figures and they succeeded in holding a tiny sliver of Israeli territory for a few days. Hamas didn’t come close to demonstrating the potential ability to “destroy Israel”. This was not some new existential threat that gave Israel no possible option other than to do the obviously idiotic thing with predictably disastrous consequences, _which was exactly what Hamas wanted them to do._ They demonstrated the ability to do October 7th scale attacks on us. You may think we should suck it up and learn to live with that kind of threat; I strenuously disagree. You talk to me about “global opinion”. How many lives did Global Opinion save on October 7th? How many hostages were released thanks to Global Opinion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5606 "2025-12-12T15:37:32Z")
How many future terrorists has Israel created over the last 2 years? To stave off the obvious question (which has been answered again and again, but here it is again): what should Israel have done? Find a way to fight Hamas _without killing tens of thousands of children_, fight _without committing atrocities_, and fight _without deliberately withholding aid to starving people_. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5607 "2025-12-12T15:49:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How many future terrorists has Israel created over the last 2 years? While an absurdly simplified analysis of the situation might boil down to “you kill people and then their relatives become terrorists”, reality is far more nuanced than that. People take political actions when they can see those actions achieving their end goal. Right now, Gazans support Hamas because they believe that Hamas’ strategy is likely to secure their end goal, namely, a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea. The fighting will end when Palestinians by and large accept that this goal is impossible. That’s it. Palestinians, like all human beings, are generally rational actors. Given the parameters and beliefs they start with, their current actions against Israel _are rational_. The only way to end terrorism is to change the equation. Israel didn’t make peace with Egypt and Jordan by making Egyptians and Jordanians (or even the leaders of Egypt and Jordan) love us. We did it by making it very clear to both the Jordanian monarchists and the Egyptian nationalists that their pan Arab ambitions were impossible to achieve, at which point they modified their goals and made peace. Settlers don’t become settlers because a Palestinian terrorist killed their uncle, and Palestinians don’t become terrorists for such superficial reasons either. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To stave off the obvious question (which has been answered again and again, but here it is again): what should Israel have done? Find a way to fight Hamas _without killing tens of thousands of children_, fight _without committing atrocities_, and fight _without deliberately withholding aid to starving people_. Great, can you propose such a way that would actually work? Of course you can’t, because _this is what urban warfare against an entranched terrorist regime like Hamas looks like_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5608 "2025-12-12T16:01:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _this is what urban warfare against an entranched terrorist regime like Hamas looks like_. Considering all the reporting, notably including from IDF members themselves, _I don’t believe you_. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5609 "2025-12-12T16:03:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering all the reporting, notably including from IDF members themselves, _I don’t believe you_ 👍 OK What you do or don’t believe doesn’t change reality, and I’ve wasted enough time in this mode: [![](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ENlW!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa9d8d409-b74f-4c05-ad35-d8cc63d98e7d_300x330.png) ](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!ENlW!,w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa9d8d409-b74f-4c05-ad35-d8cc63d98e7d_300x330.png) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5610 "2025-12-12T16:05:56Z")
The difference between us is that I’m not ignoring independent evidence, like reports from IDF members themselves, just because it disrupts my own preferred narrative. I would prefer to trust the IDF and the Israeli government, but independent reporting has made that impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5611 "2025-12-12T16:13:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The difference between us is that I’m not ignoring independent evidence, like reports from IDF members themselves, just because it disrupts my own preferred narrative. The fact that I reviewed the information and came to a different conclusion than you did doesn’t mean that I am “ignoring” anything. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5612 "2025-12-12T16:15:39Z")
Your conclusion, from all the evidence, is literally that the Israeli government, and the IDF, have made zero significant mistakes since Oct 7th with regards to Gaza and Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5613 "2025-12-12T16:18:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your conclusion, from all the evidence, is literally that the Israeli government, and the IDF, have made zero significant mistakes since Oct 7th with regards to Gaza and Hamas?. No, and I’ve certainly never said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5614 "2025-12-12T16:21:57Z")
So what are you disagreeing with? You disagree that the reports of IDF members, a US merc, and many individual Gazans, indicate a high likelihood some atrocities have been conducted by Israeli forces? You disagree that the GHF was entirely incompetent, and likely purposefully incompetent, in distributing aid (according to the reports of pretty much every international aid expert out there)? You disagree that IDF bombs and bullets have killed tens of thousands of children? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5615 "2025-12-12T16:33:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So what are you disagreeing with? That Israel is intentionally going in and committing massacres. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You disagree that the reports of IDF members, a US merc, and many individual Gazans, indicate a high likelihood some atrocities have been conducted by Israeli forces? If by “atrocity” you mean an intentional killing of civilians rather than attempts to engage enemy forces that lead to civilian deaths, then yes, I disagree that credible reports indicate a high likehood of that being the case. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You disagree that the GHF was entirely incompetent, and likely purposefully incompetent, in distributing aid (according to the reports of pretty much every international aid expert out there)? Yep. And I think it’s hardly surprising that people whose job depends on the GHF not working out are critical of it. _It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it_. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You disagree that IDF bombs and bullets have killed tens of thousands of children? I disagree with the claim that any of those deaths were caused by intentional strikes against targets that were _not_ valid military targets. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5616 "2025-12-12T16:34:21Z")
That’s the difference in the opinions, then. That you trust the GHF is absolutely nuts, considering it was staffed by Netanyahu and Trump cronies, not actual aid experts. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5617 "2025-12-12T16:44:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > considering it was staffed by Netanyahu and Trump cronies, not actual aid experts. I’ve seen what the “aid experts” have done over the last 20 years. They were thoroughly compromised by Hamasniks. It’s such a pathetically low bar can clear, even Netanyahu cronies are better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=273) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=275)