# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 275
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5618 "2025-12-12T16:48:46Z")
There are plenty of aid experts who have nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas, and based on my reading they’re all united in their disdain for the GHF. And that’s an utterly ridiculous excuse to trust a bunch of evangelical weirdos with no experience in international aid. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5619 "2025-12-12T17:07:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are plenty of aid experts who have nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas, and based on my reading they’re all united in their disdain for the GHF. There are plenty of aid experts who disagree with that assessment, but of course they just get denounced as “genocide supporting (((Zionist))) shills”, so whatever. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And that’s an utterly ridiculous excuse to trust a bunch of evangelical weirdos with no experience in international aid. Evangelical ideology is insane and I don’t trust anyone who holds it. I feel exactly the same way about other illiberal ideologies like Fascism, Islamism, Socialism, and so on. Many of Israel’s harshest critics follow ideologies that find just as unreliable as Evangelicalism, so I’m not inherently going to trust their testimony over an Evangelical’s. Aside from some of the parties in the Israeli Parliament, none of the groups involved in this conflict are Liberal, so pointing out that they are one flavor or another flavor of illiberal doesn’t really move my needle. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5620 "2025-12-12T17:10:44Z")
Don’t worry, ignore all the international experts, Trump put his evangelical pals, who have no relevant experience, on the case! There’s no other issue, Babs, that you wouldn’t be absolutely cackling with disdain at the above sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5621 "2025-12-12T17:14:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There are plenty of aid experts who disagree with that assessment Without cites, I don’t remotely accept this. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5622 "2025-12-12T17:22:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s no other issue, Babs, that you wouldn’t be absolutely cackling with disdain at the above sentiment. I can think of a _number_ of issues where illiberal left types tell me “you can’t hold this position, anyone who disagrees with me on this is a fascist” and I dismiss what they have to say because they’re illiberal. And likewise, I can think of plenty of issues where people on the illiberal right tell me “you can’t hold that position, it’s a commie position!” and again, I disregard them because they’re illiberal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5623 "2025-12-12T17:23:56Z")
What a joke. “Trump’s evangelical buddies are on the case.” You can tell yourself what you need to, but don’t expect me to believe it. I don’t even believe that _you_ believe it, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5624 "2025-12-12T17:26:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What a joke. “Trump’s evangelical buddies are on the case.” Literally, better them (or a braindead orangutan) then the “Israel is an apartheid settler-colonialist ethnostate that must be liberated from the river to the sea” socialist types. One illiberal for another. Obviously in a perfect world you’d have a liberal two state supporting rational group in charge of the operation. But that’s not really on the table. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5625 "2025-12-12T17:31:31Z")
You really expect me to believe that every aid expert on earth falls into that category? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5626 "2025-12-12T17:32:28Z")
Do you expect me to believe that everyone in the GHF falls into the Evangelical category? No, not all aid workers are like that. That’s precisely the culture at these organizations, though. And that culture goes a looooooong way towards explaining why Palestinians believe the incorrect things they do (that Israelis are settler colonialists who will leave if you make them miserable enough, for example) that lead them to believe that if they keep on with the current Hamas style strategy they will eventually “free” all of “Palestine” from the river to the sea. Because they think that if they get enough Palestinians brutally killed, the world will turn on Israel, and between sanctions and terrorism, we will pack up and ‘go back to Poland’, as the Polish guy pretending to be a Palestinian doctor and aid worker on Twitter liked to say. Spreading that attitude creates a thousand times more terrorists than airstrikes do, because it creates beliefs that - when held - rationally justify armed “resistance”. October 7 didn’t happen because Palestinians are stupid and incapable of thinking ahead; it happened because the assumptions Palestinians hold, thanks in large part to Western leftists reinforcing these beliefs, make that plan seem rational. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5627 "2025-12-12T17:42:56Z")
So if you agree there are plenty of non extremist aid experts, why did Israel give the job to those Trumpy bozos? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5628 "2025-12-12T17:45:04Z")
Because Netanyahu is a piece of shit. He picked just about the worst option possible. It’s only a slight improvement over the existing Hamas collaborators. Like I said, if I _could_ have a group motivated by Liberal values distributing aid, I’d greatly prefer that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5629 "2025-12-12T17:46:00Z")
So you agree the GHF was totally incompetent! Why was this so hard to admit? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5630 "2025-12-12T17:48:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you agree the GHF was totally incompetent! Did I agree to that? I said they were just about the second worst option possible. I don’t think they’re _totally_ incompetent. I don’t think UNRWA was incompetent at all, by the way - I think they were accomplishing _exactly_ what they intended to accomplish. They viewed entranching the conflict as a goal (which is why the definition of a Palestinian refugee is different from the definition of every other refugee on the planet - the policy is hand crafted to keep Palestinians “on ice” to be used to pressure Israel with Right of Return demands). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5631 "2025-12-12T17:49:43Z")
So we agree that the Israeli government is guilty of putting incompetent people in charge of aid and thus contributing to the massive suffering occurring in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5632 "2025-12-12T17:50:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So we agree that the Israeli government is guilty of putting incompetent people in charge of aid and thus contributing to the massive suffering occurring in Gaza Only if we ignore the situation beforehand. The GHF is a massive improvement over the UNRWA because it isn’t specifically working towards extending the conflict and preventing any reasonable two state solution from ever being implemented. The UNRWA contributing to the entranchment of Hamas (and the intractability of the conflict as a whole) created thousands of times more suffering than any GHF incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5633 "2025-12-12T18:27:53Z")
I don’t believe that. But getting you to agree that the GHF is a bunch of incompetent bozos is a big step and we can leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5634 "2025-12-12T20:37:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But getting you to agree that the GHF is a bunch of incompetent bozos A bunch of incompetent bozos and a _massive_ improvement over the intentionally malicious people there beforehand, correct. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2025, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5635 "2025-12-12T23:08:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is not how “aid” works in most of the world, and i suspect that it didn’t have to work that way in Gaza either. Is this the Hamas that was executing people after the ceasefire? If that’s the case then yes, this is not how “aid” works in most of the world. It is, however, how the Nazis prosecuted the war in Berlin as the Russians were closing in. The SS was running around executing people they deemed deserters in what was utter chaos. The head mole person was busy in his tunnel system getting married so he could commit suicide with his new wife. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5636 "2025-12-13T00:22:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Because they think that if they get enough Palestinians brutally killed, the world will turn on Israel, Israelis may not leave over it, but that’s pretty much exactly what’s happened. It’s hurting non-Israel Jews in the rest of the world, too. I’ve never on my life seen the level of antisemitism that is routine, now. And u don’t mean students camping out on college campuses. I mean [Jews refused service at ordinary retail establishments in Toronto.](https://thej.ca/2025/04/22/banned-for-belief-jewish-shopper-ousted-from-toronto-shoppers-drug-mart-over-star-of-david/) Because Israel took the bait. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5637 "2025-12-13T00:26:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Israelis may not leave over it, but that’s pretty much exactly what’s happened. My point is that Hamas (and Palestinians who support Hamas) do what they do with the end goal of driving Israelis out of Israel because of their false understanding of what Israel is. If you accept their initial parameters, that Israelis are equivalent to French Algerians or something, then they are acting rationally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=274) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=276)