# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 276
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5638 "2025-12-13T00:30:56Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s hurting non-Israel Jews in the rest of the world, too. I’ve never on my life seen the level of antisemitism that is routine, now. And u don’t mean students camping out on college campuses. I mean [Jews refused service at ordinary retail establishments in Toronto.](https://thej.ca/2025/04/22/banned-for-belief-jewish-shopper-ousted-from-toronto-shoppers-drug-mart-over-star-of-david/) I want to go on record as saying I don’t think that story is true as stated. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5639 "2025-12-13T00:31:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And u don’t mean students camping out on college campuses. I mean [Jews refused service at ordinary retail establishments in Toronto.](https://thej.ca/2025/04/22/banned-for-belief-jewish-shopper-ousted-from-toronto-shoppers-drug-mart-over-star-of-david/) This has been happening since October 2023, long before Israel “took the bait”. And I still haven’t seen anyone propose a reasonable alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5640 "2025-12-13T00:32:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This has been happening since October 2023, long before Israel “took the bait”. And for a few thousand years before that, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5641 "2025-12-13T00:35:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And for a few thousand years before that, as well Very, very true. Antisemites have never been in short supply. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5642 "2025-12-13T00:41:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s hurting non-Israel Jews in the rest of the world, too. I’ve never on my life seen the level of antisemitism that is routine, now. And u don’t mean students camping out on college campuses. I mean [Jews refused service at ordinary retail establishments in Toronto.](https://thej.ca/2025/04/22/banned-for-belief-jewish-shopper-ousted-from-toronto-shoppers-drug-mart-over-star-of-david/) > > Because Israel took the bait. You think victim blaming Jews in the diaspora and excusing Jew hatred is ok? Because this how this comes across. A seniors residence in Toronto had their mezzuzahs ripped down last week. This is the fault solely of the Jew haters in question. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5643 "2025-12-13T00:48:36Z")
I’m not “victim blaming Jews in the diaspora”, but yes, I am putting some of the blame on Israel for committing atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5644 "2025-12-13T00:58:22Z")
I think the blame clearly falls on the anti-semites commiting the action, and secondarily on the media figures who radicalized them by portraying a normal war as an “attrocity”. Go read Hasan Piker’s twitch chat for 10 minutes while he’s talking about Israel (so always, when he isn’t praising China) and you’ll see hundreds if not thousands of people who’d tear mezzuzahs off doorframes or harass Jewish people away from places of business. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5645 "2025-12-13T01:24:25Z")
The responsibility for antisemititic acts lies with the antisemites who perform them (and encourage them). Atrocities committed by Israeli forces increase the danger faced by Jews around the world. Both statements are true. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5646 "2025-12-13T01:40:34Z")
Media figures describing normal wartime acts as “attrocities” when Israel does them while ignoring actual attrocities and even [praising the countries that are committing them](https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/hasan-piker-praises-communist-china-183611250.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMuBFbMTTCVUJByCUODfnfGiN7rpoIAQa8uBOwPUuuYM5irP9wCoKUNKG726kwqEhPFjtkHB8iwQNOEFF3oCa3S99BD_euEikC7gDxpUg4IZ40E0NcbPV3hj75wZPvMSJ4EIX-eoK_ss1SbEVPxpt77BTDIpKaXsJ3ZkisKkCJXW) increase the danger faced by Jewish people around the world. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5647 "2025-12-13T02:15:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Both statements are true. Then I’ll add a third: Jews who excuse Jew Hatred because they think Israel is causing the increase in Jew Hatred are partially to blame. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5648 "2025-12-13T02:22:19Z")
How about a fourth - Jews who blame other Jews for supposedly causing Jew hatred by criticizing the IDF and Israeli government are also partially to blame. …I can do this all day! ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5649 "2025-12-13T02:23:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can do this all day! You’ve made that pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5650 "2025-12-13T02:31:00Z")
Has anyone excused Jew hatred in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2025, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5651 "2025-12-13T02:34:50Z")
Over a 5000 post thread? Many times, including one person I won’t name who I had to put on my ignore list. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2025, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5652 "2025-12-14T11:46:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m not “victim blaming Jews in the diaspora”, but yes, I am putting some of the blame on Israel for committing atrocities. These atrocities are part and parcel of warfare. Civilian deaths, war crimes, dead babies, they’re just what war - _every war_ - looks like. Israel are certainly not special in that regard. By the standards to which some in this thread are holding Israel, the Allies in WWII were far worse. They killed far more civilians, including children and babies, they committed many more war crimes, their war crimes went largely unpunished. Yet we forgive ourselves and condemn Israel. Why? War is hell. That’s why you shouldn’t start them. If you _do_ start one, _everything_ that follows is on you. We accept this when we’re talking about ourselves and our own actions. We should also accept it when considering Israel’s. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2025, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5653 "2025-12-14T11:52:23Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > War is hell. That’s why you shouldn’t start them. If you _do_ start one, _everything_ that follows is on you. We accept this when we’re talking about ourselves and our own actions. Nonsense. People are responsible for their own actions, but not for atrocities committed by others in retaliation for their actions. If I break into your house to commit a burglary and fatally wound your uncle in the resulting gunfight, that’s on me and I should be punished for it. But if you in revenge go buck wild with an AK47 and muder my entire family and half the neighbors on my block, that’s not on me. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2025, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5654 "2025-12-14T12:05:25Z")
Two points: Firstly, that’s not analogous. If your nation’s government orchestrates an attack on my nation then your nation’s government is an existential threat to me and my people, and your nation’s government needs to go. Period. There’s no way to remove your nation’s government without killing a certain number of your citizens. Some of them will be children and babies. That’s sad, but those deaths are the fault of _your_ nation’s government, not mine. If your nation’s government hadn’t attacked my nation then they’d all still be alive. Secondly, your attitude (even if it could be practically applied to war between nations) _certainly_ wasn’t the attitude the Allies adopted when fighting the Axis powers. We went in with our AKs and killed everyone on the block. Repeatedly. And yet we’re totally cool with it. We’re _proud_ of it, in fact. The generation that did it is the ‘Greatest Generation’. But Israel does the same thing _to a much lesser degree_ and it’s beyond the pale. Seems like a pretty huge double-standard. To be clear, I’m not suggesting that the Allies deserve the kind of condemnation that Israel is currently getting. I’m just saying that we should judge Israel by the same standard to which we’ve historically always judged ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2025, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5655 "2025-12-14T12:53:55Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > If your nation’s government orchestrates an attack on my nation then your nation’s government is an existential threat to me and my people, and your nation’s government needs to go. Period. Nonsense again. Plenty of nations (and it’s quite a stretch to call Hamas a “nation’s government”, considering how persistently Israel has suppressed any national sovereignty for Palestinians) have fought wars and then ended wars, without wholesale government removal. Eradicationist rhetoric of this sort is just an artificial excuse to give Israel carte blanche for any and all war crimes it may commit, and disingenously assign all the blame for them to Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2025, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5656 "2025-12-14T13:02:04Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Secondly, your attitude (even if it could be practically applied to war between nations) _certainly_ wasn’t the attitude the Allies adopted when fighting the Axis powers. We went in with our AKs and killed everyone on the block. Repeatedly. And yet we’re totally cool with it. We’re _proud_ of it, in fact. Who’s “we”? My father fought for the US in WWII, and he didn’t commit war crimes, and was not proud of [war crimes committed by Allied forces.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II) > During [World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), the [Allies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II) committed legally proven [war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_World_War_II) and violations of the [laws of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war) against either [civilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilians) or [military personnel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_personnel) of the [Axis powers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers). […] The atrocities committed by **all** parties in WWII which were illegal even under the more lax laws of war in force at the time were the chief reason for the postwar institution of the more stringent Geneva Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2025, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5657 "2025-12-14T13:05:30Z")
IDF members themselves are reporting being ordered to, or witnessing others, commit atrocities against unarmed civilians. Atrocities against unarmed civilians may be relatively common, but that doesn’t make them acceptable. It’s wrong for Hamas to massacre unarmed civilians. It’s also wrong for the IDF to massacre unarmed civilians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=275) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=277)