# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 279
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5698 "2025-12-19T11:40:05Z")
We’re drilling down to the real disagreement - I believe restricting lifesaving aid to civilians in desperate circumstances is always unjustifiable, you appear to believe that it’s justifiable in some circumstances. Perhaps you similarly think massacring civilians is acceptable in some circumstances too? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5699 "2025-12-19T11:53:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe restricting lifesaving aid to civilians in desperate circumstances is always unjustifiable, you appear to believe that it’s justifiable in some circumstances. I believe that the best way to ensure that lifesaving aid flows to the Gazan people is for Hamas to unconditionally surrender. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5700 "2025-12-19T12:10:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I believe that the best way to ensure that lifesaving aid flows to the Gazan people is for Hamas to unconditionally surrender. Continuing to drill down to the real disagreement – I believe the best way to ensure that lifesaving aid flows to Gazan civilians is for the Israeli government to allow lifesaving aid to flow to Gazan civilians. That’s a decision that Israel could make on their own that would not increase any risk to Israeli civilians. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5701 "2025-12-19T13:14:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The IDF does not “massacre civilians”. Ha ha! This just a few posts after I linked to _just_ such a massacre (pre-Oct 7th). > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s not Israel’s responsibility to feed the people of Gaza. Actually, [it is.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-55) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5702 "2025-12-19T13:26:14Z")
(link is to Geneva conventions, which state an occupying power is responsible to provide food and medical aid to the occupied population.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5703 "2025-12-19T13:34:30Z")
…what do you think the purpose of the Geneva Convention is? Or of international law in general? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5704 "2025-12-19T13:51:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “The Israeli authorities continue to block the entry of basic shelter materials, fuel, and water infrastructure, leaving people exposed to entirely preventable harm,” This is, of course, completely untrue. There are hundreds and hundreds of trucks entering the Strip every day. If the same people telling us that Gaza was already experiencing such intense starvation that thousands of people starved to death every day, and then that never actually happened, are now telling us that Israel isn’t sending any aid into Gaza, I’m not particularly inclined to believe them. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5705 "2025-12-19T14:30:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Continuing to drill down to the real disagreement – I believe the best way to ensure that lifesaving aid flows to Gazan civilians is for the Israeli government to allow lifesaving aid to flow to Gazan civilians. That’s a decision that Israel could make on their own that would not increase any risk to Israeli civilians. Would you believe this guy? [Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib on X: “During the worst of the days of the hunger crisis in Gaza in the past six months, Hamas deliberately hid literal tons of infant formula and nutritional shakes for children by storing them in clandestine warehouses belonging to the Gaza Ministry of Health. The goal, as I said https://t.co/pANo9uHfAb” / X](https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1998244937356231110) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5706 "2025-12-19T14:36:36Z")
I would reply: 1. we all know that Hamas is an evil organization that benefits from the pain and suffering of Palestinian civilians. So sadly, that’s a very plausible claim. 2. but it doesn’t have a lot to do with whether Israel should be doing more to get food and medical aid to Gazans. Yes, some medical aid can be militarized. But no one is going to use baby formula in Gaza to attack Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5707 "2025-12-19T14:41:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > but it doesn’t have a lot to do with whether Israel should be doing more to get food and medical aid to Gazans. Yes, some medical aid can be militarized. But no one is going to use baby formula in Gaza to attack Israelis. That’s not the argument, at all. The point is that Israel _is_ letting baby formula into Gaza, and then Hamas puts it in a hole in the ground instead of giving it to civilians with babies because they _want_ babies to starve so that people in the West will get outraged and unintentionally run cover for them. The video linked by @FinsToTheLeft didn’t show formula being used to attack Israelis, it showed formula boxes dumped on the floor of a tunnel. That’s precisely what the GHF was trying to get around. And it’s why Hamas was so desperate to create incidents at GHF sites so that people in the West who are half paying attention will oppose the GHF. Unfortunately, that ended when the ceasefire started, and Hamas is up to their usual tricks again. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5708 "2025-12-19T14:45:46Z")
I love that Discourse shows how many people clicked a link. In case you aren’t the single person other than myself who has clicked the link so far, here are some relevant quotes: > [@](#): > > During the worst of the days of the hunger crisis in Gaza in the past six months, Hamas deliberately hid literal tons of infant formula and nutritional shakes for children by storing them in clandestine warehouses belonging to the Gaza Ministry of Health. > > The goal, as I said then, was to worsen the hunger crisis and initiate a disaster as part of the terror group’s famine narrative in a desperate effort to stop Israel’s onslaught against Gaza and force the return of the UN’s aid distribution mechanism, and away from the controversial Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF). > [@](#): > > What those in the West continue to fail to understand is that there is no being pro-Palestine without also having a serious vigilance against Hamas’s continued manipulation of international public opinion to hide behind the Strip’s civilian population’s suffering, something that the terrorist organization’s own actions have led to and created. > > Never allow yourself to be a useful idiot in Hamas’s propaganda. You can have compassion for the real suffering of the Palestinian civilians of Gaza, and demand Israeli action to facilitate aid entry into the coastal enclave, while still holding Hamas accountable for its part in causing a hunger and starvation crisis in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5709 "2025-12-19T14:52:28Z")
No one is disputing that Hamas is evil. That doesn’t excuse Israeli atrocities. We already know that the Israeli government deliberately and knowingly put incompetent Trumper clowns in charge of delivering aid to Gazans, with predictably poor results. We already know that the Israeli government tolerates, encourages, and often directly engages in brutality against West Bank civilians who pose no threat to Israeli security. It’s not remotely credible that this Israeli government is trying its best to deliver aid to desperate Gazans, but Hamas is just making it too difficult. There are plenty of international organizations with actual experts in aid during wartime who are willing to step up, but the Israeli government refuses to allow them to do everything necessary. Asking anyone to trust the likes of Netanyahu and Smotrich and their disgusting allies to do the right thing for desperate Palestinian civilians is like asking us to trust Trump to do the right thing for desperate refugees or migrants (or for that matter, asking us to trust Hamas to do the right thing). It’s no surprise that morally atrocious leaders are committing and allowing atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5710 "2025-12-19T14:56:46Z")
I get it, you don’t like Netanyahu or Smotrich. I’ll tell you a secret: I don’t think _anyone_ in this thread does. (Maybe there was one guy who liked Netanyahu posting like a year ago, I’m not sure). I also don’t “trust” them and I doubt any Israeli or Israel adjacent person in this thread does. That doesn’t have much to do with whether Israel is committing “attrocities”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5711 "2025-12-19T14:59:07Z")
Right. And Trump and Stephen Miller have nothing to do with ICE mistreatment of their detainees. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5712 "2025-12-19T15:02:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And Trump and Stephen Miller have nothing to do with ICE mistreatment of their detainees. ICE mistreats its detainees; I’ve seen evidence of that, so I believe it. If the only evidence of ICE mistreating civilians was the testimony of some Mexican revanchists who were committing terror attacks across parts of the US taken in the Mexican American War, and you expected me to believe it with no real evidence just because “But look at Trump, isn’t he a bad guy?” I wouldn’t take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5713 "2025-12-19T15:04:30Z")
What if it was members of ICE themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5714 "2025-12-19T15:06:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What if it was members of ICE themselves?. If it was analogous to the IDF testimony you’re talking about, where a handful of soldiers say “We did something illegal! Let me describe it!” And then describing normal legal military action, then no, I wouldn’t find it very convincing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5715 "2025-12-19T15:10:15Z")
Shooting unarmed civilians in the back is normal legal military action? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5716 "2025-12-19T15:13:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shooting unarmed civilians in the back is normal legal military action?. Do you mean shooting at a crowd of people who were walking towards a military position and ignoring warnings to stop? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5717 "2025-12-19T15:14:40Z")
No, I mean exactly what I said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=278) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=280)