# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 280
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5718 "2025-12-19T15:15:09Z")
/r/thathappened ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5719 "2025-12-19T15:21:51Z")
Suppose an IDF member had reported that he witnessed or was ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back (or otherwise posed no threat). Would you agree that this is good evidence of IDF atrocities? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5720 "2025-12-19T15:25:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Suppose an IDF member had reported that he witnessed or was ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back. Depends on how reliable their testimony is. What I _have_ seen evidence of is soldiers who were ordered to shoot groups that _they_ didn’t consider a threat and that they complained about being told to do so. I haven’t seen any evidence that they were _right_ about these groups being no threat, and if a group of people is moving into an area you’ve restricted and are ignoring multiple warnings to stop, obviously you _are_ going to shoot. We saw the same BS years ago with the so-called “March of Return”. People tried to argue that it was wrong to shoot people who were _actively trying to cut a hole in the border fence_. **Obviously** you are going to get shot if you try to do that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5721 "2025-12-19T15:27:26Z")
The benefit of the doubt you extend to the Israeli government and IDF is just breathtaking. I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen anything like it (outside of Trumper media, perhaps). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5722 "2025-12-19T15:29:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The benefit of the doubt you extend to the Israeli government and IDF is just breathtaking. I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen anything like it That’s because you haven’t looked in the mirror at the benefit of doubt you extend to the Palestinians and their leaders. By the way, I assumed you were bringing up that “shot in the back” scenario because you had a supposed _example_? Or did you just hear vague allusions to that scenario on BlueSky or X and assume they were real? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5723 "2025-12-19T15:31:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s because you haven’t looked in the mirror at the benefit of doubt you extend to the Palestinians and their leaders. How about a cite for this? In what post did I extend any benefit of the doubt, specifically, to “Palestinians” or “their leaders”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5724 "2025-12-19T15:32:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > By the way, I assumed you were bringing up that “shot in the back” scenario because you had a supposed _example_? Or did you just hear vague allusions to that scenario on BlueSky or X and assume they were real? I wanted to see if there was a point. Obviously there’s not. You’ll find a way to dismiss any evidence brought, as you have so far. I think you’re not able to even consider the possibility that some of the moral void of Netanyahu and his allies might have trickled into the IDF, no matter the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5725 "2025-12-19T15:35:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wanted to see if there was a point. Obviously there’s not. I mean, if the claim you have actually had strong evidence in its favor, I’ll definitely consider it. But you saying “Netanyahu is a rotten meanie, why wouldn’t you believe anything bad I say about any organization he’s associated with just because of that?” is not very convincing. Especially when opposite him are murderers like Hamas’ leadership and Abbas with his PHD in Holocaust denial. If Netanyahu is a moral void, they are moral rot. I’ll definitely agree that Netanyahu has no morals, but these guys are worse; they have _bad_ morals. I looked up your claim and I can’t find it, even on Blood Libel specialist outlets like Al Jazeera (though there’s only so long I can spend giving ad revenue to Qatari royalty). So either present your claim and the evidence for it, or admit it’s spurious BS. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5726 "2025-12-19T15:41:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Asking anyone to trust the likes of Netanyahu and Smotrich and their disgusting allies to do the right thing for desperate Palestinian civilians is like asking us to trust Trump to do the right thing for desperate refugees or migrants (or for that matter, asking us to trust Hamas to do the right thing). It’s no surprise that morally atrocious leaders are committing and allowing atrocities. I’m sure as hell not endorsing Bibi, Smotrich, or Ben Gvir. They should all be in jail. My point is that the only way that Israel can distribute aid at the level needed and actually get it into the hands of civilians is for Hamas to be gone. Until then, the aid will not make it where it needs to go no matter how many trucks cross the border. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5727 "2025-12-19T15:44:16Z")
[https://archive.ph/eCLDB](https://archive.ph/eCLDB) > In one incident, the soldier was instructed to fire a shell toward a crowd gathered near the coastline. “Technically, it’s supposed to be warning fire – either to push people back or stop them from advancing,” he said. “But lately, firing shells has just become standard practice. Every time we fire, there are casualties and deaths, and when someone asks why a shell is necessary, there’s never a good answer. Sometimes, merely asking the question annoys the commanders.” > In that case, some people began to flee after the shell was fired, and according to the soldier, other forces subsequently opened fire on them. “If it’s meant to be a warning shot, and we see them running back to Gaza, why shoot at them?” he asked. “Sometimes we’re told they’re still hiding, and we need to fire in their direction because they haven’t left. But it’s obvious they can’t leave if the moment they get up and run, we open fire.” This is just a snippet of a Haaretz report that details several incidents – but yes, it’s a fact that (according to Haaretz) IDF members have reported witnessing or being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians who were running away. Similar reports from a US contractor: > **[Security contractor says he witnessed ‘barbaric’ and un-American tactics at...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/u-s-whistleblower-describes-chaos-and-reckless-force-at-gaza-aid-sites)** > > The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a U.S. and Israeli-backed humanitarian aid initiative, has been delivering aid into Gaza since May. But since then, the U.N. says hundreds of Palestinians have been killed outside of GHF aid sites. Nick Schifrin... ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5728 "2025-12-19T15:46:25Z")
I don’t remotely believe this. Israel hasn’t even tried. The “best” they tried was putting a bunch of incompetent evangelical Trump pals, with zero experience or expertise in distributing aid in a war zone, in charge of distributing aid in Gaza. That’s not remotely a good faith effort by Israel to ensure desperate Gazans are getting what they need. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5729 "2025-12-19T15:47:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is just a snippet of a Haaretz report that details several incidents – but yes, it’s a fact that (according to Haaretz) IDF members have reported witnessing or being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians who were running away. Got it, so you’re retracting the claims made in these posts? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shooting unarmed civilians in the back is normal legal military action? > [@Babale](#): > > Do you mean shooting at a crowd of people who were walking towards a military position and ignoring warnings to stop? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I mean exactly what I said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5730 "2025-12-19T15:48:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Especially when opposite him are murderers like Hamas’ leadership and Abbas with his PHD in Holocaust denial. If Netanyahu is a moral void, they are moral rot. I’ll definitely agree that Netanyahu has no morals, but these guys are worse; they have _bad_ morals. I no longer believe there’s any such difference. Netanyahu and his allies are as monstrous as Hamas’s leadership. As bad as humans get. Knowingly presiding over mass atrocities and widespread avoidable civilian deaths. For what it’s worth, I believe Trump is just as bad. He just hasn’t (yet) had an “opportunity” in which he saw widespread avoidable civilian deaths as somehow beneficial to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5731 "2025-12-19T15:48:37Z")
I’m happy to address the new claims you’re now making, but I just want to confirm we’re fully done with the motte and have moved on the the bailey. [Motte-and-bailey fallacy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:text=The%20motte%2Dand%2Dbailey%20fallacy,(the%20%22bailey%22)). You admit that there aren’t any Israeli soldiers claiming they were ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back, now, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5732 "2025-12-19T15:56:04Z")
I just quoted it. Shooting at civilians running away. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5733 "2025-12-19T15:59:07Z")
Again: > some people began to flee after the shell was fired, and according to the soldier, other forces subsequently opened fire on them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5734 "2025-12-19T16:00:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I just quoted it. Shooting at civilians running away. …you’re not serious. There’s no way you’re this bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5735 "2025-12-19T16:02:32Z")
I literally quoted an IDF soldier reporting witnessing other soldiers shooting fleeing civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5736 "2025-12-19T16:03:08Z")
We went from “_An Israeli soldier testified that he shot civilians in the back_” to “_An Israeli soldier says he was shooting at one group that began to move and then someone else shot towards them_”. You’re too intelligent for me to believe that you actually think these two claims are _remotely_ equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5737 "2025-12-19T16:03:54Z")
Funny how neither of those quotes are from me. Maybe read my words more carefully? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=279) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=281)