# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 281
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5738 "2025-12-19T16:05:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe read my words more carefully? I did, and even asked you to clarify whether you were talking about troops around GHF sites shooting at large groups. You said no, but then cited the exact same incident I asked you about. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5739 "2025-12-19T16:09:33Z")
No you didn’t. You said: > [@Babale](#): > > Do you mean shooting at a crowd of people who were walking towards a military position and ignoring warnings to stop? While my quote was > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > some people began to flee after the shell was fired, and according to the soldier, other forces subsequently opened fire on them. Hint: “began to flee” is the opposite of “walking towards”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5740 "2025-12-19T16:11:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Don’t start a war with them” would have been my suggestion. Nobody’s saying that Hamas **should** have attacked Israel. But blaming Hamas for the entirety of the conflict and violence is a despicable distortion of the facts. As the saying goes: If you want peace, work for justice. Israel has for decades insisted on unjustly dispossessing and oppressing Palestinians, and pretending that the consequent absence of peace is all the Palestinians’ fault. Saying “don’t start a war with your oppressors when they outarm and outgun you” as your only suggested “solution” to the problem of being oppressed is nothing but callous and inhumane indifference to oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5741 "2025-12-19T16:12:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hint: “began to flee” is the opposite of “walking towards” Hint: if a group moves away from a dude to its left, it may be moving towards a group to the right. The dude on the left may not be able to tell if the group is “fleeing” or not from his position. And if the dudes on the right shoot at the group at that point, they aren’t shooting them “in the back”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5742 "2025-12-19T16:14:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As the saying goes: If you want peace, work for justice. Israel has for decades insisted on unjustly dispossessing and oppressing Palestinians, and pretending that the consequent absence of peace is all the Palestinians’ fault. > > Saying “don’t start a war with your oppressors when they outarm and outgun you” as your only suggested “solution” to the problem of being oppressed is nothing but callous and inhumane indifference to oppression. If the Palestinians didn’t see the mere existence of Israel outside of Gaza and the West Bank as “oppression”, they’d have made peace with Israel literally decades ago (sometimes after 73 when Palestinian nationalism replaced Pan Arabism as the motivating ideology of the anti Israeli side) and moved on by now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5743 "2025-12-19T16:14:34Z")
More fact-free, evidence-free benefit of the doubt! Sure, doesn’t matter that the report provides no such information, you have concluded that everything is just peachy because it’s possible to invent a scenario that might excuse such a massacre. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5744 "2025-12-19T16:18:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure, doesn’t matter that the report provides no such information, The “report” from one disgruntled soldier? Who you claimed testified that he was ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back, but actually reported that someone else at an entirely different position shot at a group that was moving away _from him_? OK. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5745 "2025-12-19T16:20:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Who you claimed testified that he was ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back Please cite for this specific claim about my post. Specific words. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5746 "2025-12-19T16:52:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Please cite for this specific claim about my post. Specific words [Motte-and-bailey fallacy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:text=The%20motte%2Dand%2Dbailey%20fallacy,(the%20%22bailey%22)). You start off with the motte here: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shooting unarmed civilians in the back is normal legal military action? You continue fighting outside the motte here: > [@Babale](#): > > Do you mean shooting at a crowd of people who were walking towards a military position and ignoring warnings to stop? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I mean exactly what I said. Then you drop the drawbridge but do not retreat across it here, by introducing some off ramps like “in the back (or otherwise posed no threat)”: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Suppose an IDF member had reported that he witnessed or was ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back (or otherwise posed no threat). Would you agree that this is good evidence of IDF atrocities? And then you post your link without actually sounding the retreat, until I call you on it, and suddenly the motte never existed and you’re only defending the bailey. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Specific words. That’s precisely the beauty of this tactic, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5747 "2025-12-19T17:10:32Z")
You still didn’t cite for the specific claim you made about my words. My cite supported my original claim - that an IDF member reported witnessing or being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back (in this specific case, witnessing shootings of fleeing civilians, but also in that same link, being ordered to shoot crowds of unarmed civilians who pose no threat). That’s what a plain reading of the words say (shooting those fleeing is the same as shooting in the back for those with integrity). Only with your fabricated different positions, right/left, and other made up stuff not in the link, could shooting fleeing civilians be twisted into normal, legal military action (and even then, shooting crowds of unarmed civilians is pretty frickin abnormal). This motte and bailey stuff seems like nothing more than an attempted distraction from your inability to support your specific claim about my words. My position never changed, and a plain reading of my link supports my original claim. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5748 "2025-12-19T17:33:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My cite supported my original claim - that an IDF member reported witnessing or being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back (in this specific case, witnessing shootings of fleeing civilians, but also in that same link, being ordered to shoot crowds of unarmed civilians who pose no threat) That _was not_ your original claim, though; this was: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shooting unarmed civilians in the back is normal legal military action? That’s called a “motte and bailey” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5749 "2025-12-19T17:35:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [https://archive.ph/eCLDB](https://archive.ph/eCLDB) > [@Babale](#): > > I love that Discourse shows how many people clicked a link. Yes, quite. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5750 "2025-12-19T17:40:16Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Yes, quite You’re right, I didn’t click his link. Do you know _why_ I didn’t click his link? Because when he first said that IDF soldiers shot civilians in the back, I asked him if he was referring to this GHF incident or if he had a real cite of a time when this actually occurred, and after a lot of obfuscation, he went ahead and linked _the very same GHF story I thought he was talking about_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5751 "2025-12-19T17:42:14Z")
This is another false claim you’re making about the posts. You specifically described something different than my link says. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5752 "2025-12-19T17:43:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You specifically described something different than my link says. Only if you assume that the guy giving his account was some kind of RTS eye in the sky commander who could tell why another group of soldiers at another position was shooting. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5753 "2025-12-19T17:44:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > referring to this GHF incident Let’s see a specific cite that you asked me if I was “referring to this GHF incident”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5754 "2025-12-19T17:47:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s see a specific cite that you asked me if I was “referring to this GHF incident” I described this incident (and the other alleged GHF incidents) here: > [@Babale](#): > > Do you mean shooting at a crowd of people who were walking towards a military position and ignoring warnings to stop? And then again here: > [@Babale](#): > > What I _have_ seen evidence of is soldiers who were ordered to shoot groups that _they_ didn’t consider a threat and that they complained about being told to do so. I haven’t seen any evidence that they were _right_ about these groups being no threat, and if a group of people is moving into an area you’ve restricted and are ignoring multiple warnings to stop, obviously you _are_ going to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5755 "2025-12-19T17:48:15Z")
I’m not assuming anything. Just reading his words, in which he says he witnessed IDF soldiers shoot fleeing civilians. You’re the one making a bunch of assumptions about positioning and other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5756 "2025-12-19T17:52:01Z")
This is not a description of the GHF incidents. Not remotely. But I’ll note that you’re motte/baileying here. You specifically said you asked me if I was referring to the GHF incident. Now you’re backing up to something else. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5757 "2025-12-19T17:52:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not assuming anything. Just reading his words, in which he says he witnessed IDF soldiers shoot fleeing civilians. You’re assuming that his words represent reality and that a guy on the ground in one location is a reliable source on why people at another location shot towards a group of people in a third location. Again, unless he’s floating a kilometer above the battlefield like an RTS commander, I don’t see how you could possibly take his word as gospel here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=280) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=282)