# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 283
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5778 "2025-12-19T23:13:28Z")
So where is the IDF explanation of what happened to Hind Rajab? Their first attempt was proven to be false (lies, based on my reading – baseless lies). They still haven’t explained what actually happened. She was a five year old girl trapped in a car for hours (a car that had been destroyed by the IDF, with family members inside), pleading for help on the phone, and when paramedics were sent, the paramedics were killed along with Rajab. Shit happens in war – obviously it does. That’s not an explanation, nor is it an excuse. Hind Rajab never posed any threat at all to Israel, and at the very least, her memory and her family are owed an explanation for what went wrong. And if any IDF members behaved improperly in her death, they should face justice. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5779 "2025-12-19T23:14:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So where is the IDF explanation of what happened to Hind Rajab? What makes you think you’re entitled to one? It’s not realistic to expect Israel to account for the cause of every single civilian casualty. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5780 "2025-12-19T23:15:48Z")
Hind Rajab’s family is entitled to an explanation. They haven’t gotten one. It’s entirely realistic to expect Israel to explain a child’s death that has gotten so much public attention. If they had a good explanation, they would have offered it. That they have not seems like a pretty good indication that the true explanation does not reflect well on the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5781 "2025-12-19T23:26:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hind Rajab’s family is entitled to an explanation. They were in a war zone. That’s the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5782 "2025-12-19T23:28:45Z")
Bullshit. You wouldn’t accept an ICE explanation of a missing child “they were in a migrant zone” or “they were in a group of criminal aliens”. And the IDF lied about this already! Why would you trust them so easily after their initial lies were exposed, and they’ve never even tried again to explain? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5783 "2025-12-19T23:39:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They were in a war zone. That’s the explanation. …this is incorrect. And iiandyiii is incorrect as well. The IDF _has_ provided an explanation. It just isn’t a credible one. The IDF claims “they weren’t in the area” at the time. So it can’t have been them. This Sky News report includes audio recording of Hind’s 15-year-old cousin begging for help, clearly describing a tank which was just about to kill her. We hear her scream then die. > **[Sky News investigates slaughter of Palestinian family fleeing fighting |...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=karu---ptoQ%2F)** > > Sky's Stuart Ramsay tells the story of Hind Rajab, a five-year-old Palestinian girl who was killed with her family as she tried to flee fighting in Gaza.The ... Then for three hours they talk to Hind, trying to comfort her. The Red Crescent get permission to send an ambulance to rescue her. The ambulance is later destroyed, both paramedics killed, and Hind is also shot and killed. Here is the Forensic Architecture report on Hind’s killing. > **[Forensic Architecture](https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-of-hind-rajab)** It provides even more evidence that, yes, the IDF committed these warcrimes. It simply isn’t credible that anyone else was responsible for these killings. The IDF explanation wasn’t that “they were in a warzone.” It was “it wasn’t us.” They are lying. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5784 "2025-12-19T23:41:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You wouldn’t accept an ICE explanation of a missing child “they were in a migrant zone” or “they were in a group of criminal aliens”. Apples and elephants. ICE isn’t defending this country against an existential threat. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And the IDF lied about this already! According to Wikipedia, which as I cited has an anti-Israel bias. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would you trust them so easily after their initial lies were exposed, and they’ve never even tried again to explain? I don’t have to trust them. I don’t see that there’s any reason they need to explain anything about this to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5785 "2025-12-19T23:44:58Z")
I did mention they lied. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5786 "2025-12-19T23:46:20Z")
I get that you’re happy to accept IDF propaganda without question, but surely you must recognize that, considering the IDF record of lies (which, you’ll note, come from journalists reporting facts, [including Israeli journalists and news organizations like Haaretz](https://archive.ph/TRaFW)), some of us are more skeptical, right? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5787 "2025-12-19T23:59:00Z")
I have no interest in “IDF propaganda”. Whatever they have to say about the situation is irrelevant because there’s nothing extraordinary or noteworthy about it in the first place. Civilian casualties are unavoidable in war and you’ve provided me with no reason to think this one is any different. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5788 "2025-12-20T00:01:51Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > My point is that the only way that Israel can distribute aid at the level needed and actually get it into the hands of civilians is for Hamas to be gone. …nobody wants Israel to be distributing aid at this level. The humanitarian agencies are perfectly capable of doing it on their own. And those agencies have reported over and over again that Hamas are not the problem in getting aid distributed to the people. It’s Israel. The ceasefire agreement was for 600 trucks of aid a day. From all reports, the amount of trucks getting into Gaza hasn’t exceeded _half_ of that. On average about 250 trucks. Many of them commercial trucks, not aid. And it includes low value items like chocolate bars and cellphones and not the desperately needed shelter, food and aid. > [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Would you believe this guy? No I wouldn’t. Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib has…a reputation. And that he is sharing unverified videos that are probably out of context is unsurprising. In response to this video, from the Gaza Health Ministry Director-General Dr. Munir al-Bursh: > [@](#): > > In a voice note shared with Drop Site, al-Bursh said the incident being cited dates back to August 2025, when UN reports documented that roughly 88% of aid entering Gaza was being stolen, largely by armed groups including the Israel-backed Abu Shabab gang. He said milk shipments were held on the Israeli side until just days before expiration, and when entry was finally allowed, authorities were able to secure only a small portion, which was distributed within ten days. > > According to al-Bursh, most of the shipment was looted, and those responsible attempted to sell it at highly inflated prices in local markets. When much of it could not be sold, the remaining quantities were later dumped in streets or disposal areas. He said the episode was fully documented at the time and accused prominent social media accounts well-known for spreading misinformation of reviving the story months later to distort the record. > > > Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib @afalkhatib The idea that Hamas is deliberately hoarding infant formula for propaganda purposes is really reaching for the heights of absurdity, as if the killing of over 70,000 people, a deliberately engineered famine, babies left to die in their incubators, the systematic targeting and destruction of the healthcare system, schools and infrastructure isn’t already enough. The idea that baby formula will be what finally changes the minds of western governments, “and if we hide a few crates…that will do it!” doesn’t make any sense. This was the reality. > **[Israel’s starvation campaign is systematic and intentional – new testimonies...](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israels-starvation-campaign-systematic-and-intentional-new-testimonies-palestinians)** > > ‘I saw with my own eyes people carrying bags of flour stained with the blood of those who had just been shot; even people I knew were almost unrecognisable. The experience of hunger and war has changed Gaza completely’ - Nahed, 66 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5789 "2025-12-20T00:02:15Z")
After her car was shot and family members killed, she was trapped in a car for hours. Her cousin, who later died, managed to call for paramedics. The paramedics were finally able to come get her. When they arrived, the IDF killed everyone left alive. That’s not remotely a normal thing happening in a war zone. At the very least, an explanation is warranted. If the IDF actually had a good explanation, they would have given it. Your lack of interest in why so many children are killed (and other bad things) is very convenient for bad people who want to do bad things. Or even just incompetent or dishonest people who want to cover up mistakes or crimes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5790 "2025-12-20T00:09:55Z")
I’m just gonna throw this out there, Smapti, but let me guess - you’re similarly uncurious about the incompetent Trumper bozos who Netanyahu put in charge of distributing aid to Gaza, purely because they were pals of Trump, right? And when their incompetence meant that many desperate Gazans died avoidable deaths, similarly you probably have no interest in any explanation, or accountability, right? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5791 "2025-12-20T00:13:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I did mention they lied. …no question they lied. Not disagreeing with that. And I agree with everything you have said. I was more commenting on this: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hind Rajab’s family is entitled to an explanation. They haven’t gotten one. They _have_ gotten an explanation. It’s the only one they are going to get. I think Hind Rajab’s family is entitled to the _truth_. And they won’t get that from the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5792 "2025-12-20T00:25:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > After her car was shot and family members killed, she was trapped in a car for hours. Her cousin, who later died, managed to call for paramedics. The paramedics were finally able to come get her. When they arrived, the IDF killed everyone left alive. According to who? Wikipedia? I’m not taking anything Wikipedia says about Israel at face value these days. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > you’re similarly uncurious about the incompetent Trumper bozos who Netanyahu put in charge of distributing aid to Gaza, purely because they were pals of Trump, right? And when their incompetence meant that many desperate Gazans died avoidable deaths, similarly you probably have no interest in any explanation, or accountability, right? I’m curious about why you think Hamas stealing food aid intended for civilians is a non-factor. Handing out MREs doesn’t usually require any special level of competence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5793 "2025-12-20T00:29:09Z")
If you’re unwilling to even consider independent reporting, including from Israeli journalists, and if you truly believe that distributing aid in a war zone doesn’t require experience and expertise, then there’s really no point in discussing anything. That’s a level of unreality that I can’t even begin to address. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5794 "2025-12-20T00:29:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not taking anything Wikipedia says about Israel at face value these days. In your attempt to prove that Wikipedia is biased, you cited nothing but Jewish sources. Ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5795 "2025-12-20T00:38:07Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > In your attempt to prove that Wikipedia is biased, you cited nothing but Jewish sources. Are you suggesting that “Jewish sources” are inherently untrustworthy? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5796 "2025-12-20T00:38:32Z")
I am suggesting they are not free of bias. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5797 "2025-12-20T00:38:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you’re unwilling to even consider independent reporting I’m willing to consider independent reporting. The only cite you’ve provided is Wikipedia. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > distributing aid in a war zone And whose fault is it that it’s a war zone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=282) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=284)