# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 285
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5818 "2025-12-20T17:33:24Z")
Wait, so, right now, you do or do not support clearing most or all of the WB settlements? And you do or do not support the immediate and total cessation of violence and theft against WB Palestinian civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5819 "2025-12-20T17:35:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Wait, so, right now, you do or do not support clearing most or all of the WB settlements? Unilaterally? No, of course no. In exchange for some concrete concessions from the Palestinian leadership that brings us closer to a two state solution? Yes, definitely. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And you do or do not support the immediate and total cessation of violence and theft against WB Palestinian civilians? I think settlers who commit acts of violence and theft against Palestinians should go to jail, just like anyone else who commits an act of violence or theft against anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5820 "2025-12-20T17:36:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think settlers who commit acts of violence and theft against Palestinians should go to jail, just like anyone else who commits an act of violence or theft against anyone else. Do you think settlers who have already done this should be arrested and prosecuted? Are you in favor of empowering Palestinian authorities to do this? And/or do you think the Israeli government should put force in place to protect WB Palestinians (since they’re currently not protected)? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5821 "2025-12-20T17:38:52Z")
As for the settlements, they should all be cleared immediately. Not in exchange for anything, but they were wrong to begin with, and they’re still wrong, and wrong things should be righted. Clearing the settlements wouldn’t increase any security risk to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5822 "2025-12-20T17:50:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think settlers who have already done this should be arrested and prosecuted? Yep. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you in favor of empowering Palestinian authorities to do this? And/or do you think the Israeli government should put force in place to protect WB Palestinians (since they’re currently not protected)? If additional forces can be moved there without jeopardizing the situation in Gaza, and as things wind down there (or if the ISF actually forms in the new year as promised) then yes. As far as empowering the PA - absolutely not as they are right now, paying bounties for dead Israeli civilians. If they actually go through with some of the reforms they’ve promised to make in exchange for control of Gaza, then yes, that would be a reasonable intermediate step leading towards the PA or a successor organization becoming fully sovereign in the West Bank. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As for the settlements, they should all be cleared immediately. Not in exchange for anything, but they were wrong to begin with, and they’re still wrong, and wrong things should be righted. Clearing the settlements wouldn’t increase any security risk to Israel Agree to disagree. I agree that they shouldn’t have been founded to begin with, that’s why I’m willing to disband them in exchange for the peace process. But I don’t think Israel should disband them unilaterally. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5823 "2025-12-20T17:56:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If additional forces can be moved there without jeopardizing the situation in Gaza, and as things wind down there (or if the ISF actually forms in the new year as promised) then yes. > > As far as empowering the PA - absolutely not as they are right now, paying bounties for dead Israeli civilians. If they actually go through with some of the reforms they’ve promised to make in exchange for control of Gaza, then yes, that would be a reasonable intermediate step leading towards the PA or a successor organization becoming fully sovereign in the West Bank. AFAICT, this means you’re okay with the status quo. Which IMO is apartheid or worse. A decent, peace loving Palestinian in the WB does not have a decent chance at peacefully thriving in the present circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5824 "2025-12-20T18:04:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > AFAICT, this means you’re okay with the status quo. No, I’m not OK with the status quo. The status quo is horrible war and lots of wasted lives every few years. What I’d be “OK” with is a two state solution, and with any intermediate steps that bring us closer. What I’m _not_ “OK” with is Israel being expected unilaterally take these necessary steps. That creates exactly 0 incentive on the other side to match Israel’s actions and take the steps they need to take to reach peace. That’s what we saw at every previous peace summit, where Israel offered to go back to 67 borders and was rejected. You’re mad at me because I won’t say that Israel should unilaterally disband the settlements just because we both agree it would be the “right” thing to do; well, I also think that the PA should announce that they accept Israel’s existence within 67 borders and renounce all claim to Israeli land. I think it would be the “right” thing to do for them to just go ahead and do that unilaterally. But I recognize that this will never ever happen unless it is in exchange for something. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5825 "2025-12-20T18:12:53Z")
IMO apartheid is never okay. There’s never an excuse. These are real families being brutalized and without much of a future, through no fault of their own. It’s never okay. Jim Crow was never okay. Apartheid in SA was never okay. And it’s never okay in the WB either. There’s just no excuse, no justification, not ever. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5826 "2025-12-20T18:17:22Z")
It’s an occupation of foreign territory, not apartheid. And the only reason the occupation continues is that Palestinians have refused multiple two state offers. The occupation will end when Palestinians agree to renounce their claim of Israel itself. I will not end unilaterally. We tried that in 2005 and you can see how well that worked out for Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5827 "2025-12-20T18:19:03Z")
I don’t accept this. Looks like, acts like, functions like, and certainly feels like, apartheid/Jim Crow. There’s no justification, no excuse, no rationalization. These are human beings, and it’s always, always wrong to treat them this way. If you can rationalize this, you can rationalize anything. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5828 "2025-12-20T18:22:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Looks like, acts like, functions like, and certainly feels like, apartheid/Jim Crow. When you say something like “Looks like, acts like, functions like, and certainly feels like, [two things that are pretty damn different separated by a slash]” that should be a clue that you’re incorrect. It’s really beside the point, though. You don’t make peace unilaterally. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5829 "2025-12-20T18:25:36Z")
To me you sound like George Wallace, and his allies. Or those last supporters of apartheid in SA. They rationalized it to themselves too. Many even convinced themselves they had no hatred. Treating humans like that is never okay. Never never never. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5830 "2025-12-20T18:26:31Z")
Also: _There’s no justification, no excuse, no rationalization. These are human beings, and it’s always, always wrong to treat them this way. If you can rationalize this, you can rationalize anything._ -Me, describing the Palestinian Authority’s pay for slay program where they literally pay terrorists to murder civilians. _Treating humans like that_ (paying someone to murder them, that is) _is never okay. Never never never._ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5831 "2025-12-20T18:28:01Z")
Agreed! If only you had the same view about the treatment of Palestinians in the WB overall. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5832 "2025-12-20T18:29:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Agreed! If only you had the same view about the treatment of Palestinians in the WB overall I do! I think they should both stop, in exchange for one another. That sounds like a great plan to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5833 "2025-12-20T18:31:15Z")
That’s not “never, never, never”, that’s “it’s okay for now, until this criteria”. No criteria, never, never, never. You’re rationalizing this. You could rationalize anything. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5834 "2025-12-20T18:33:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not “never, never, never”, that’s “it’s okay for now, until this criteria”. > > No criteria, never, never, never. When someone does “never never never” things to you routinely, it changes the equation. It’s basic game theory. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re rationalizing this. You could rationalize anything. Rationality is indeed what separates us from the animal kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5835 "2025-12-20T18:34:55Z")
Most Palestinians in the WB aren’t doing “never” things to Israelis. But you’re rationalizing treating them like this anyway. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5836 "2025-12-20T18:35:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > we started off smaller, poorer, and weaker Than the Palestinians? That’s very ahistorical. I mean, if the early Zionist settlements were so poor, how did they afford to hire Palestinian labour? Naah, that [Rothschild](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_James_de_Rothschild#Zionism) and [Hirsch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Association#Palestine_and_Israel) money meant they were never _poorer_. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5837 "2025-12-20T18:36:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most Palestinians in the WB aren’t doing “never” things to Israelis And most of the Israelis who were slaughtered on October 7th never did anything to Palestinians. Many of them were leftist Kibbutzniks who were heavily invested in the peace movement until their throats were slit by Gazans they knew personally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=284) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=286)