# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 286
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5838 "2025-12-20T18:37:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Than the Palestinians? This didn’t start off as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We both know that if Israel had lost the war in 1948 there wouldn’t have been an independent “Palestine”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5839 "2025-12-20T18:38:24Z")
So that’s why you’re okay with continuing the brutal mistreatment of peaceful WB civilians? Because peaceful Israelis elsewhere were slaughtered? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5840 "2025-12-20T18:41:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So that’s why you’re okay with continuing the mistreatment of WB civilians? Because peaceful Israelis elsewhere were slaughtered?. No, I’m not “okay” nor am I “OK” with the mistreatment of WB civilians. I said before that I think Israel should do what it can to clamp down on actual settler violence including move additional forces into the West Bank so long as this doesn’t threaten security by taking forces away from Gaza. But I don’t think that the settlements should be disbanded unilaterally. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5841 "2025-12-20T18:44:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, I’m not “okay” nor am I “OK” with the mistreatment of WB civilians. I said before that I think Israel should do what it can to clamp down on actual settler violence including move additional forces into the West Bank so long as this doesn’t threaten security by taking forces away from Gaza. Still the criteria. Still the conditions. You don’t like it, but you’re willing to live with it under certain conditions. That’s not never never never. That’s rationalization for allowing brutal mistreatment of human families. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5842 "2025-12-20T18:50:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Still the criteria. Still the conditions. You don’t like it, but you’re willing to live with it under certain conditions. To be clear, the condition I mentioned was “not threatening security from Gaza”. If you think we should risk more October 7th style attacks in order to clamp down on settler violence, then we are definitely not gonna see eye to eye on this. You aren’t going to convince me that this is an unreasonable take. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5843 "2025-12-20T18:52:47Z")
Or you could empower Palestinian groups to protect themselves. The settlers violating rights don’t require military protection, or weapons. Disarming them would not take any significant military force. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5844 "2025-12-20T18:54:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Or you could empower Palestinian groups to protect themselves. The Palestinian group that currently pays for dead Israeli civilians? No thanks. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The settlers violating rights don’t require military protection, or weapons. Disarming them would not take any significant military force. If the IDF disarmed them and left the area, what do you hoenstly think would happen? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5845 "2025-12-20T18:57:48Z")
The settlers might leave the WB? Certainly WB civilians would be much, much less at risk from oppression and brutality. Or maybe the IDF already in the WB could disarm the settlers, and then enforce equal treatment and human rights? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5846 "2025-12-20T19:12:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The settlers might leave the WB? Certainly WB civilians would be much, much less at risk from oppression and brutality. Really? You don’t think there’d be any oppression and brutality in that scenario? Why would the Settlers leave if there’s “much less risk of oppression and brutality”? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Or maybe the IDF already in the WB could disarm the settlers, and then enforce equal treatment and human rights? Would enforcing equal treatment and human rights involve disarming the Palestinians too in this scenario? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5847 "2025-12-20T19:14:01Z")
I’m just trying to find out under what circumstances you’re okay with this kind of demeaning, humiliating, and ongoing violation of human rights and brutality. That there are any such circumstances is the main difference between us, but I’m curious about the specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5848 "2025-12-20T19:18:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m just trying to find out under what circumstances you’re okay with this kind of demeaning, humiliating, and ongoing violation of human rights and brutality. So no answer to this question? > [@Babale](#): > > Really? You don’t think there’d be any oppression and brutality in that scenario? Why would the Settlers leave if there’s “much less risk of oppression and brutality”? Because it really seems like you do correctly understand that if the IDF disarmed the settlers and dipped out, the settlers would be subjected to “_demeaning, humiliating, and ongoing violation of human rights and brutality_” until they left the West Bank, or at least that they’d understand this clear and immediate threat and flee beforehand, and you think this would be a good thing. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That there are any such circumstances is the main difference between us, but I’m curious about the specifics. So you would not be “OK” with that being the outcome of the IDF disarming the settlers and leaving? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5849 "2025-12-20T19:30:29Z")
Settlers are humans and thus have the same rights as any humans. Right now, I’m not aware of any ongoing, continuous violations of the human rights of settlers. There are such violations of Palestinians in the West Bank, and there’s no excuse for allowing them to continue. The IDF is already protecting the rights (and sometimes the crimes) of settlers. They should stop protecting crimes, and start protecting the rights of everyone. Note that “keeping property I stole” is not a human right. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5850 "2025-12-20T19:37:53Z")
Why do you think the settlers would leave if the IDF disarmed them and left? You still haven’t answered that very basic question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5851 "2025-12-20T19:40:18Z")
I don’t know, that’s why I said “might”. It’s hard to keep publicly known stolen property without heavy weapons and/or military force to protect you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5852 "2025-12-20T19:43:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know, that’s why I said “might” Of course you don’t… > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s hard to keep publicly known stolen property without heavy weapons and/or military force to protect you. OK, don’t give a real answer to the question. The answer is very obviously obvious. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5853 "2025-12-20T19:45:32Z")
We’ve drilled down to the difference here - you’re okay with apartheid, under specific, limited circumstances. I’m not, under any circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5854 "2025-12-20T19:47:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’ve drilled down to the difference here - you’re okay with apartheid, under specific, limited circumstances No, I’m OK with a military occupation under specific, limited circumstances. No matter how much buzzword bingo we play, the underlying facts don’t change. And you’re clearly OK with forced, violent ethnic cleansing under specific circumstances. Because we both know that this is exactly what would happen if the IDF disarmed the settlers and left. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5855 "2025-12-20T19:51:38Z")
You’re okay with apartheid if you call it occupation. I’m okay with (in fact I demand) ending the settlements because they’re a crime, morally and legally. Ending illegal settlements is the opposite of ethnic cleansing. The illegal settlements are part of an ongoing, slow ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5856 "2025-12-20T19:56:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re okay with apartheid if you call it occupation. Well no, they’re actually very different things. Apartheid is when some of your country’s own people are second class citizens or worse. Occupation is when you win a war with a foreign nation (in this case, a series of wars all declared by them) and you wait for them to establish a government that isn’t dedicated to your destruction. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ending illegal settlements is the opposite of ethnic cleansing. The illegal settlements are part of an ongoing, slow ethnic cleansing. Ending the settlements and removing all the Jewish people from Palestine so it can be nice and ethnically purified of subhuman Jews and other non Arabs is precisely the definition of ethnic cleansing. As part of a two state agreement, it is barely tolerable; there’s no reason why a future Palestine couldn’t treat its Jewish citizens well, but anyone counting on that is beyond stupid, so removing the settlers is the better alternative. The way you suggest, of the IDF disarming them and then declaring open season on West Bank Jews by leaving? That would be a slaughter. Literally, like on October 7th. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2025, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5857 "2025-12-20T20:02:20Z")
Are you saying Israel would prevent the settlers from returning? Or wouldn’t assist them? Because I’d definitely oppose that. Israel by all means must not only allow, but assist and ensure the settlers can safely return to Israel, in that circumstance. Also, are you saying all Jews in the WB are criminal settlers? If so, I was not aware of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=285) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=287)