# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/653 "2023-10-27T01:02:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > By the way, why one government in PALESTINE? Why not one government in [Syria?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Syria) > > You’re drawing arbitrary lines, you just prefer the arrangement that leaves no room for Jews. The issue, specifically, is the Israel/Palestine Conflict. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/654 "2023-10-27T01:03:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > You are wrong. The main right is their repatration throughout Palestine > > I’m still waiting for my store in Morocco. Talk to Morocco. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/655 "2023-10-27T01:03:39Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > You are wrong. The main right is their repatration throughout Palestine. … by eliminating the Jewish people first, I understand. This seems to be the first and primary goal. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/656 "2023-10-27T01:06:55Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > You are wrong. The main right is their repatration throughout Palestine. > > … by eliminating the Jewish people first, I understand. This seems to be the first and primary goal You are wrong, again. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/657 "2023-10-27T01:07:54Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > You are wrong. The main right is their repatration throughout Palestine. So when Hamas achieves repatriation of all of the Palestinian people throughout Palestine, then they will live in peace and harmony with the Jewish peoples who will also live there, is that the plan? Do you think? Or will they follow the Hamas Covenant, and eliminate all Jewish people from the area? " “The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.” _(Article 11)_ “[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.” _(Article 13)_ ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/658 "2023-10-27T01:10:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > You are wrong. The main right is their repatration throughout Palestine. > > So when Hamas achieves repatriation of all of the Palestinian people throughout Palestine, then they will live in peace and harmony with the Jewish peoples who will also live there, is that the plan? > > Do you think? > > Or will they follow the Hamas Covenant, and eliminate all Jewish people from the area? Hamas should be prosecuted for their crimes; so should the Zionists. The people in Palestine should work towards a democratic, pluralistic and egalitarian state for all of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/659 "2023-10-27T01:10:56Z")
You see, the elimination of all Jewish people everywhere has a long and bloody history. It goes back a very long time indeed. And this history seems to be forgotten by those who wish fervently to repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/660 "2023-10-27T01:12:09Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > Hamas should be prosecuted for their crimes; so should the Zionists. > > The people in Palestine should work towards a democratic, pluralistic and egalitarian state for all of themselves. I await your proposal for how Hamas should be prosecuted for their crimes, and how the people of Palestine can get rid of them and work towards lessening their hatred towards Jews. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/661 "2023-10-27T01:12:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You see, the elimination of all Jewish people everywhere has a long and bloody history. It goes back a very long time indeed. And this history seems to be forgotten by those who wish fervently to repeat it. Yes sir. They should not be allowed to repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/662 "2023-10-27T01:15:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > Hamas should be prosecuted for their crimes; so should the Zionists. > > > > The people in Palestine should work towards a democratic, pluralistic and egalitarian state for all of themselves. > > I await your proposal for how Hamas should be prosecuted for their crimes, and how the people of Palestine can get rid of them and work towards lessening their hatred towards Jews. The international community should go after Hamas and the Zionists and prosecute them according to international laws. Lessening the Palesinians’ hatred towards the Zionist Jews would begin with the dismantling of the Israel state apparatus and the implementation of a single state in all of Palestine that would serve all of the people therein. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/663 "2023-10-27T01:18:48Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > Yes sir. They should not be allowed to repeat it. Who are you expecting to stop them? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/664 "2023-10-27T01:20:04Z")
The terrorism and killings of Jews would never stop. Too many people believe in this principle: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.” \*(Article 7) THIS is what we’re dealing with here. You can’t just wish this away. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/665 "2023-10-27T01:20:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > Yes sir. They should not be allowed to repeat it. > > Who are you expecting to stop them? The right minded international community. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/666 "2023-10-27T01:21:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The terrorism and killings of Jews would never stop. > > Too many people believe in this principle: > > “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.” \*(Article 7) > > THIS is what we’re dealing with here. You can’t just wish this away. You are making facile bigoted assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/667 "2023-10-27T01:22:47Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > The right minded international community. They never have before. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/668 "2023-10-27T01:36:09Z")
On the one hand, we have 2,000 years of Jewish history worth of evidence. On the other, we have @InfraBlue’s assertion that _this time_ the international community will prevent pogroms and genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/669 "2023-10-27T01:48:00Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > You are making facile bigoted assumptions. Not at all: I’m just posting the actual words of a large number of members of the Palestinian community. This is what they believe and are proud to publish. I admire that you are of a positive nature; that as an idealist, you appear to believe in the goodness of all people - that given a choice, the vast majority of people will choose peace and living in harmony with everyone of a different race and religion. This is a wonderful thing to aspire to. As more of a realist, I believe in the actual facts on the ground; I look at what people are actually doing, what they are saying, what they are printing and distributing, and the actions they are taking to kill other people who have a different religion. These are the facts on the ground. Accusing me of being “facile” or “bigoted” is not going to change the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/670 "2023-10-27T01:52:34Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > Benny Moris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited” That’s not really a cite. What claim are you making and what evidence does Benny Moris present in his book that you believe supports this claim? I note: > [@](#): > > Benny Morris was one of the original post-Zionists, who made his reputation by publishing Jewish man bites dog research suggesting that the Jews were more responsible for the Palestinian refugee problem than the Arabs. He has since partially recanted, swayed in large measure by the Palestinian [uprising](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-war-al-aqsa-intifada) and [Yasser Arafat’s](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yasser-arafat-table-of-contents) rejection of Barak’s offer of a Palestinian state at [Camp David](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-2000-camp-david-summit) in 2000. He now more clearly states in interviews and articles that the Palestinian refugee problem was the result of the Arab decision to go to war to destroy the nascent state of [Israel](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel). > [@InfraBlue](#): > > Ilan Pappe, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” Hillariously, your first source Benny Moris has this to say about Pappe: > [@](#): > > In his review of _The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine_ , fellow [new historian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians) [Benny Morris](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris) wrote, “At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.” Morris argued, "Such distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of _The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine._ " > **[The Liar as Hero](https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian)** > > The Rise and Fall of a Palestinian Dynasty: The Husaynis, 1700-1948 > By Ilan Pappe > (University of California Press, 399 pp., $29.95) > Out of the Frame: The Struggle for Academic Freedom in Israel > By Ilan Pappe > (Pluto Press, 246 pp., $22) > The Ethnic... > [@InfraBlue](#): > > Rashid Khalidi, “The Iron Cage” Again what is the claim you say this book supports? Here’s one review: > [@](#): > > Khalidi is the director of the Middle East Institute and the Edward Said professor of Arab studies at Columbia University. His description of the Palestinians as forever on the short end of history’s stick is neither new nor surprising. But he makes this more than an exercise in self-pity by refusing to let the Palestinians themselves off the hook. If they indeed live in an iron cage, well, Khalidi says, they helped mold the bars themselves. > … > From their repeated failures at even the rudiments of state-building (in stark contrast to the Zionists) to their embrace of a terrorism “both morally indefensible and disastrously counterproductive strategically,” Palestinians have often been their own worst enemy. Let’s not even talk about woeful decisions by their leadership… > > Khalidi says that an offer of a long-term truce by some Hamas leaders “probably did amount to a tacit and de facto acceptance of Israel.” But “tacit and de facto” doesn’t make it, not in this situation; actual words have to cross the lips. What part of that book supports what claim? That’s how cites work, not just shouting titles and authors. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/671 "2023-10-27T01:55:17Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > The issue, specifically, is the Israel/Palestine Conflict You said that there shouldn’t be two states, just one Palestine. I’m asking, why stop there? Palestine as distinct from Syria is just as arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/672 "2023-10-27T03:31:46Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > The right minded international community. > > They never have before. > [@Babale](#): > > On the one hand, we have 2,000 years of Jewish history worth of evidence. > > On the other, we have @InfraBlue’s assertion that _this time_ the international community will prevent pogroms and genocide. They must be encouraged to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=30)