# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 290
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5918 "2025-12-21T01:39:20Z")
But it does greatly increase the chance of mismanagement, wrongdoing, and even atrocities, right? And potential hushups of such wrongdoing, right? All of which could be causing more civilian deaths than necessary? Remember that Israel has banned independent journalists from entering Gaza. Maybe they have a reason for that? The Stalin comparison is a good one. Overseeing atrocities at the same time he was fighting even worse villains. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5919 "2025-12-21T01:58:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Remember that Israel has banned independent journalists from entering Gaza. Maybe they have a reason for that? Battlefields are dangerous places. Israel can’t guarantee their safety. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But it does greatly increase the chance of mismanagement, wrongdoing, and even atrocities, right? And potential hushups of such wrongdoing, right? All of which could be causing more civilian deaths than necessary? Perhaps. That still doesn’t negate Israel’s right to self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5920 "2025-12-21T02:02:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Battlefields are dangerous places. Israel can’t guarantee their safety. You were being so reasonable for a post or two. You can’t expect anyone else to buy this as the reason, can you? > [@Smapti](#): > > Perhaps. That still doesn’t negate Israel’s right to self-defense. No, but I remain unconvinced that Israel’s self defense requires so many children to be killed (nor that WB civilians be brutalized). But it’s good to see we agree that it’s likely the malevolence and incompetence of Israeli leadership is causing avoidable civilian deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5921 "2025-12-21T02:47:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You were being so reasonable for a post or two. You can’t expect anyone else to buy this as the reason, can you? 🙄 Reporters go to Gaza, get themselves killed, and then assholes across the Internet claim that Israel isurdering journalists. So Israel takes the reasonable step of not letting reporters into an active warzone, and the reaction is that obviously Israel is being nefarious here. Yet another example of the lose-lose situation Israel is in when it comes to avoiding endless criticism. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, but I remain unconvinced that Israel’s self defense requires so many children to be killed (nor that WB civilians be brutalized). You keep saying “so many” and yet you’ve shown exactly 0 evidence that the number is unusually high for an urban war of this scale. You kinda need to establish A before you move on to B. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5922 "2025-12-21T02:52:46Z")
Maybe this urban war isn’t necessary for the survival of Israel? Especially if this urban war destroys its alliance with the US, which would be far more damaging to Israel than Hamas could ever be? As for international journalists, googling says they’ve been barred from Gaza since the beginning of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5923 "2025-12-21T03:02:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe this urban war isn’t necessary for the survival of Israel? You notice how you dropped the idea that “so many” civilians are being killed immediately upon being challenged? Do you claim that this is an unusually high number of casualties for an urban war or do you officially drop that claim? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Especially if this urban war destroys its alliance with the US, which would be far more damaging to Israel than Hamas could ever be? If this war threatens Israel’s alliance with the US, which I highly doubt will happen, then it will be because of people repeating misinformation, like the idea that this war has an unusually high number of civilian casualties compared to every other urban war of this scale. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5924 "2025-12-21T03:06:53Z")
I don’t remotely trust the IDF reports about numbers of combatants vs civilians. And without independent journalists, who is there counting that can be trusted? EDIT: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war#:~:text=Israeli%20military%20intelligence%20are%20not,:%20Palestinian%20health%20ministry%2C%20WHO](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war#:~:text=Israeli%20military%20intelligence%20are%20not,:%20Palestinian%20health%20ministry%2C%20WHO) If this article is accurate, yes, the civilian deaths are much too high. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5925 "2025-12-21T03:09:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t remotely trust the IDF reports about numbers of combatants vs civilians. Yeah, I got that. We’re going around in circles. You don’t trust the IDF because they’re liars and you know they’re liars because they put out lies and you know those lies were lies because the lying IDF said them. Yes, I got that. If you ever find any evidence that’s _actual_ evidence, not just “Well the IDF said so and Netanyahu is in charge of Israel so I know the IDF is lying”, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5926 "2025-12-21T03:10:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > EDIT: > > [Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war | Gaza | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war#:~:text=Israeli%20military%20intelligence%20are%20not,:%20Palestinian%20health%20ministry%2C%20WHO) > > If this article is accurate, yes, the civilian deaths are much too high. Rofl my ass off, you did it! You called out the 83% number! Even _after_ I pointed out that someone would undoubtedly do _exactly_ that, you went ahead and did it anyways! > [@Babale](#): > > (In b4 someone tried to cite the 17% figure that talks about fighters who were identified specifically by name by the IDF and tried to claim those are the only fighters and the other 83% are civilians even though 30 seconds and two neorons are enough to understand why this isn’t the case) > [@](#): > > If this article is accurate It isn’t, as I already addressed. Or at least you interpretation of it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5927 "2025-12-21T03:12:05Z")
You mean I cited an article? Amazing! Your prediction means that article doesn’t count! Well done! Foiled again! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5928 "2025-12-21T03:13:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You mean I cited an article? Amazing! Your prediction means that article doesn’t count! Well done! Foiled again!. You cited a debunked claim that 83% of the killed are civilians when the underlying study said that 17% of the dead could be identified _by name_. The fact that the IDF couldn’t name you doesn’t mean you are a civilian. If your face got blown off by a tank round while you were shooting RPGs at said tank, for example, you would not be identifiable but you would still be a combatant. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5929 "2025-12-21T03:15:14Z")
You’re right, it’s debunked, after all, you said the magic “it’s debunked” words… But watch out! Your debunking is now debunked! I double-debunked you! No backsies… ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5930 "2025-12-21T03:22:15Z")
…“ratios” are a construct used to justify disproportionate killing of children. The idea that just because another conflict > [@Babale](#): > > Reporters go to Gaza, get themselves killed, and then assholes across the Internet claim that Israel isurdering journalists. …Israel _is_ murdering journalists. That is beyond dispute. There has been a campaign to both discredit and target Palestinian journalists from the start of this so called “war.” > **[Israel-Gaza War - Committee to Protect Journalists](https://cpj.org/issue/israel-gaza-war/)** > > Israel is engaging in the deadliest and most deliberate effort to kill and silence journalists that CPJ has ever documented. Palestinian journalists are being threatened, directly targeted, and murdered by Israeli forces, and are arbitrarily detained... 249 killed. 170 injured. 94 imprisoned. The numbers from the Committee to Protect Journalists. International journalists can look after themselves. The only threat to journalists in Gaza is from the IDF. > [@Babale](#): > > So Israel takes the reasonable step of not letting reporters into an active warzone There is a _ceasefire_. It isn’t reasonable to not let reporters in right now. > [@Babale](#): > > Yet another example of the lose-lose situation Israel is in when it comes to avoiding endless criticism. It isn’t “lose-lose.” It’s a matter of transparency. > [@Babale](#): > > You keep saying “so many” and yet you’ve shown exactly 0 evidence that the number is unusually high for an urban war of this scale. [https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-commissioner-general-gaza-gaza-now-hosts-largest-group-child](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-commissioner-general-gaza-gaza-now-hosts-largest-group-child) > [@From Philippe Lazzarini](#): > > Nearly 42,000 people in Gaza have life-changing injuries because of the war, according to WHO. One in four is a child. > > Gaza now hosts the largest group of child amputees in modern history. That statistic _alone_ should tell you something. It isn’t only “unusually high” but it’s the _highest in modern history_. Thats an absolute catastrophe. And now there is a ceasefire Israel should be allowing in all the help that they can to help these poor children and also make it easier for them to leave (with the right of return) to get medical care. 1000 babies under the age of one have been killed by the IDF. We don’t need to compare that with other wars to be able to recognise that’s both a tragedy, and something that any competent modern army should have been able to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5931 "2025-12-21T03:29:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re right, it’s debunked, after all, you said the magic “it’s debunked” words… > > But watch out! Your debunking is now debunked! I double-debunked you! No backsies…. Yawn. No, it’s not debunked because I said the word “debunked”. It’s debunked because their methodology is completely idiotic (as would be expected of the original source, propaganda rag +972 magazine). I explained this above, but they took a list of known Hamas operatives that were marked as dead, counted how many known operatives Israel marked off as dead, and then assumed that every single casualty that wasn’t listed in that particular document was obviously a civilian. It’s all right there in your own source, if you actually wanted to read beyond the headline: > [@](#): > > As of May, 19 months into the war, Israeli intelligence officials listed 8,900 named fighters from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad as dead or “probably dead”, a joint investigation by the Guardian, the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine has found. > > At that time 53,000 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli attacks, according to health authorities in [Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza), a toll that included combatants and civilians. Fighters named in the Israeli military intelligence database accounted for just 17% of the total, **which indicates that 83% of the dead were civilians.** Emphasis mine. No, it literally doesn’t indicate that. Not unless you think the Israeli document magically updates whenever a terrorist dies. ..# of dead - # of militants marked as dead in a dossier != # of civilians dead unless the # of militants killed and not identified is 0. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5932 "2025-12-21T07:15:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not unless you think the Israeli document magically updates whenever a terrorist dies. …one would assume a modern army that is operating in an area about the size of Detroit know who they are targeting and killing. Because its all about “precision strikes” isn’t it? When they killed Refaat Alareer, a writer and poet, they targeted the apartment he was staying in. It was _surgical_. If they can use explosive pagers as a terrorist tactic and murder nuclear scientists in precision strikes while they sleep, and murder writers and poets in surgical strikes on apartment buildings, then surely they can keep track of the militants they are killing next door. They can cross-reference the names with the list collated by the Gaza Health Ministry. Or when snipers kill someone. One would assume a modern army isn’t just sniping random people, right? The Gaza Health Ministry record where people have been sniped. So it’s just a matter of cross-referencing the names. We know the time, day, name of the person, location and how they died for every single one of the 53,000 Palestinians that had been killed at the time. They were either designated targets or targets of opportunity…but Israel would know who they are. The only problem would be the estimated 10s of thousands of people still buried under the rubble. Many not accessible behind the Yellow Line. Others, because Israel still refuses to let in heavy equipment or civil defence workers from other countries in, are being extracted painfully by hand. But those numbers don’t count: because they aren’t in the official death figures, so they wouldn’t have been used in the calculations we are talking about anyway. And of course these numbers don’t include people who have died because they can’t access healthcare like dialysis, who died during the siege, who died in the last couple of weeks due to the storms or the poor babies who died of hypothermia. The reality is the death count from this “war” is substantially higher than whatever numbers we are looking at now. And those dead, injured, deathly sick or amputees are almost certainly mostly going to be civilians than active militants. I’d give you more accurate numbers, but Israel are still restricting access to Gaza from the sort of humanitarian aid that it needs to be able to bring some sense to the numbers. And any numbers we get from Israel, either we get from leaks or are just outright propaganda. But if you’ve got better numbers than +972 Magazine, then by all means, feel free to share. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5933 "2025-12-21T10:33:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Or when snipers kill someone. One would assume a modern army isn’t just sniping random people, right? …ok? Do you think Shmulik the Sniper can identify the thousands of names on the dossier by sight? If an IDF sniper shoots some Hamasniks, you expect him to what, radio in and read their name tags off to his CO through his scope? You don’t shoot random people, you shoot combatants. You know, dudes with guns who are shooting at you. You don’t need to know their _name_ for that 🙄 > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We know the time, day, name of the person, location and how they died for every single one of the 53,000 Palestinians that had been killed at the time. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The only problem would be the estimated 10s of thousands of people still buried under the rubble. …if you claim to know that, and you also claim that there are that there are tens of thousands of people just missing under rubble, something clearly doesn’t add up. You understand that these are two completely contradictory claims, right? And you’re citing the same Hamas Ministry of Health that has retracted thousands of death claims when it turned out the people they claim to have been dead were not actually dead. So no, I don’t find the idea that this is a significant undercount because of vibes remotely convincing. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The reality is the death count from this “war” is substantially higher than whatever numbers we are looking at now. So you keep asserting with no evidence. Fuck, who knows, maybe 75 million addition Palestinians are buried under rubble, for all you know. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But if you’ve got better numbers than +972 Magazine, then by all means, feel free to share. +972 provided their methodology, and as noted, it makes 0 fucking sense. It’s right there in the article that no one bothered to read past the headline. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5934 "2025-12-21T10:35:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > When they killed Refaat Alareer, a writer and poet, they targeted the apartment he was staying in. (Citation needed) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5935 "2025-12-21T10:36:38Z")
ISTM it’s a starting point, and that’s if we assume the IDF’s names are all Hamas as they say they are. Some of them might be the teenage nephew of a Hamas dude whose worst crime is getting coffee and smokes for the last Hamas meeting, for all we know. So I don’t accept that this 83% is necessarily the “final” ratio, but neither do I accept that it’s necessarily useless info, and of course I also don’t accept the numbers from the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5936 "2025-12-21T10:45:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ISTM it’s a starting point, and that’s if we assume the IDF’s names are all Hamas as they say they are. Some of them might be the teenage nephew of a Hamas dude whose worst crime is getting coffee and smokes for the last Hamas meeting, for all we know. A soldier in Gaza kills a terrorist in an engagement. How does the name get updated on the list to “dead”? Do you think that every squad of soldiers can identify each of 40,000 Hamasniks by sight? Do you think Hamasniks wear name tags? This is a patently ridiculous standard of evidence. How many Russian soldiers can Ukraine identify by name? Should anyone they can’t name be assumed to be a Russian civilian, at least as a “starting point”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2025, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5937 "2025-12-21T10:49:33Z")
A starting point means an upper limit, and that’s if we assume the names are accurate. You act as if this data is worthless, when it could be, with certain other data, useful for painting the whole picture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=289) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=291)