# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 296
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6038 "2026-01-26T18:23:48Z")
The IDF presents a list that the IDF claims they found in a Hamas base. Which has not remotely been independently confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6039 "2026-01-26T19:49:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you’re just parroting the IDF, with no independent confirmation, what’s the point? Can you tell me exactly what kind of independent confirmation are you looking for? Do you think there’s a UN document that confirms ‘yes, Hamas ran their list of trainees by us, this guy was a sniper’? Hamas is a terrorist organization, I don’t expect them to share information like this with anyone else such that I don’t see how you’re going to get “independent confirmation” of their personnel lists. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can’t honestly expect anyone to just believe the IDF, with no independent confirmation, right? Do you really expect that? I don’t know, do you honestly expect me to just doubt everything the IDF says because Israelis are born liars? You’ve given me exactly zero reason to believe that these documents aren’t real. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6040 "2026-01-26T20:01:25Z")
There are always ways to attempt to confirm this kind of information. Sometimes something in particular can’t be confirmed for various reasons. But AFAICT, the IDF hasn’t bothered with independent confirmation for _any_ of the justifications for the journalists they’ve killed. Not a single one. That’s a good reason to be skeptical of their claims that haven’t been confirmed. If you know of any independent confirmation, even a single one, I’d love to see it. Otherwise we might as well be trusting Pete Hegseth or Kristi Noem in their justifications for multiple killings. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6041 "2026-01-26T21:10:59Z")
Moderating: > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t know, do you honestly expect me to just doubt everything the IDF says because Israelis are born liars? You seem to be reading something into iiandyiiii’s post that isn’t there and is a pretty nasty assumption. This is like my asking for verification of an ICE claim and your replying that i think Americans are all dishonest. Please keep this kind of aspersion-casting in the pit, and not in this thread ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6042 "2026-01-26T21:26:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can’t honestly expect anyone to just believe the IDF, with no independent confirmation, right? Why not? Other people seem to expect us to believe Hamas info with no confirmation. Or Al Jazeera. (which outside of the Middle east is a decent source, but in that area they are really biased). Generally when the IDF releases some bad info, the "other side’ quickly comes out with a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6043 "2026-01-26T21:39:06Z")
Believe what you like. IMO the IDF has more than earned my skepticism. Just like Pete Hegseth and Kristi Noem. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6044 "2026-01-26T21:41:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Other people seem to expect us to believe Hamas info with no confirmation. How is that? Relying on a single source or document is hardly quality journalism. Let us be plain: if Hamas tells you that the sky is blue, you should not believe it without independent confirmation. Same goes if you substitute “IDF”, as has been documented. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6045 "2026-01-26T21:42:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Believe what you like. IMO the IDF has more than earned my skepticism. Certainly, but are you skeptical of the biased sources from the other side? I mean, we know Netanyahu is a crook, so some skepticism is natural. But then, we should be equally skeptical from the news coming from a terrorist organization. If not more. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6046 "2026-01-26T21:45:23Z")
Of course I’m skeptical of Hamas. What kind of question is that? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6047 "2026-01-26T22:08:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Certainly, but are you skeptical of the biased sources from the other side? We are dealing with dueling propagandists. Skepticism is a given all ‘round. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2026, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6048 "2026-02-12T19:45:23Z")
> **[Israel Is Quietly Annexing the West Bank](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israel-quietly-annexing-west-bank?utm_campaign=bs&utm_content=&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky)** > > The blunder that will imperil any Mideast peace. Israel is annexing the West Bank. War and bloodshed forever, says this Israeli government, along with Hamas and Hezbollah. The US must cease its alliance with these enemies of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2026, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6049 "2026-03-25T18:37:20Z")
A Gazan toddler was reportedly returned to his family from Israeli detention (gotta detain those dangerous toddlers!) with cigarette burns on his thighs: > **[Gaza toddler released from Israeli custody with ‘cigarette burn’ wounds](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gaza-toddler-released-israeli-custody-cigarette-burn-wounds)** > > Family says toddler shows signs of torture after detention, as father remains missing Seems clear to me that there is some significant portion of the IDF, and possibly Israeli society in general, that doesn’t see Gazans as human beings. And there are a lot of politicians in the ruling Israeli coalition that agree and do their utmost to protect these Israelis from any consequences for this kind of atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2026, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6050 "2026-03-25T21:07:20Z")
> **[Israeli former PM calls on ICC to halt West Bank ‘Jewish terrorists’ after...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/25/no-israel-prosecutions-for-killing-palestinian-civilians-in-occupied-west-bank-since-start-of-decade)** > > Exclusive: Guardian analysis of settler violence shows no Israelis prosecuted since 2020 for killing Palestinian civilians, as former military, police and spy chiefs describe ‘organised Jewish terrorism’ Middle East crisis – live updates There have been no prosecutions against Israelis for killing West Bank Palestinians since 2020. Before I compare it to apartheid, I’ll ask @MrDibble - was there any six year period in which no white South Africans were prosecuted for killing Black or Colored South Africans? In my understanding it’s very comparable to the Jim Crow South, in which it was incredibly rare to prosecute whites for killing Blacks. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2026, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6051 "2026-03-25T23:03:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A Gazan toddler was reportedly returned to his family from Israeli detention (gotta detain those dangerous toddlers!) with cigarette burns on his thighs: That is not a reliable cite. I can not find a reliable news cite- not even Al Jazeera- who reports this story. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There have been no prosecutions against Israelis for killing West Bank Palestinians since 2020. OTOH, The Guardian, altho left leaning, is indeed fairly reliable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2026, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6052 "2026-03-25T23:34:26Z")
So you agree that Israel’s practices in the West Bank are comparable to segregation and the Jim Crow South? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2026, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6053 "2026-03-26T04:59:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > was there any six year period in which no white South Africans were prosecuted for killing Black or Colored South Africans? I wouldn’t know. But I’m pretty sure there’d be one or two in any such period. _Most_ such killings would be either by the State, or downgraded to “accidents”, “assault”, closed at the inquest stage or just never charged. BUT There was never an ongoing problem of White civilians killing non-White civilians in Apartheid-era SA. The State did like keeping its monopoly on violence, more-or-less. Civilian lynchings by Whites, for instance, weren’t really a thing in SA. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2026, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6054 "2026-03-26T08:16:16Z")
Thanks. At least in that characteristic, Jim Crow may be a better comparison than apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2026, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6055 "2026-03-26T09:35:04Z")
On the Gaza toddler incident - Israel still isn’t allowing journalists into Gaza. So it’s nearly impossible to get independent confirmation of stories like this. Israel is clearly trying to hide what’s happening in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2026, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6056 "2026-03-26T09:58:17Z")
Not allowing journalists into an active war zone partially controlled by terrorists who actively target foreigners? Gee, I can’t imagine ANY reason they’d want to do that! Must be because the entire Gazan population will be dead 300 years from now at the current casualty rate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2026, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6057 "2026-03-26T11:11:02Z")
I don’t know why you’d give any benefit of the doubt to Netanyahu and his pack of liars. They’ve been caught lying dozens of times over the course of the conflict. Do you really believe that Netanyahu and his allies _wouldn’t_ try to hide bad things Israelis have done in Gaza? Do you have an explanation for why no Israeli has been prosecuted for murdering a Palestinian in the West Bank for at least 6 years? Do you think Israeli atrocities and oppression are only in the West Bank and somehow they’ve behaved the opposite in Gaza? Or just more excuses and blind trust for Netanyahu and his liars? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=295) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=297)