# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 298
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6078 "2026-05-08T23:48:09Z")
Unconfirmed is not the same thing as bogus, especially when journalists are pretty much entirely absent from Gaza. The post I cited reports that an Israeli TV network reports that an Israeli soldier stated that they’re supposed to shoot all men they see in Gaza. I don’t know if it’s accurate - that’s why I described it as a report. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6079 "2026-05-08T23:51:40Z")
A soldier making an excuse for why he shot the person he was supposed to be rescuing does not equal “it is Israeli policy to kill all males on sight”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6080 "2026-05-08T23:52:53Z")
I’m just reporting what, presuming the translation is accurate, Israeli TV is reporting - that a soldier said their rules of engagement state they should shoot the men they see. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6081 "2026-05-08T23:53:41Z")
Have you considered the possibility that that soldier is full of shit? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6082 "2026-05-08T23:54:02Z")
Yes. Have you considered the possibility he may have told the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6083 "2026-05-08T23:54:53Z")
The overwhelming majority of male hostages were rescued without being shot, so “shoot all males” is clearly not an accurate description of the IDF’s rules of engagement. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6084 "2026-05-08T23:55:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Unconfirmed is not the same thing as bogus, especially when journalists are pretty much entirely absent from Gaza. I pointed out that Al-Jazeera was in there, and hardly a fan of Israel, but somehow that escaped their notice. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > that a soldier said their rules of engagement state they should shoot the men they see. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israeli media reports that, in Gaza, rules of engagement are “shoot any adult male you see”, and for women and children, “use your judgement”. One of these things is not like the other. In one it is one soldier- in the other it is the rules. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6085 "2026-05-08T23:56:46Z")
Maybe. Maybe different soldiers are told different things. Maybe some disregard murderous rules and try to do the right thing. We don’t know. We know multiple soldiers have said they’ve been given orders to or witnessed murderous behavior. More than that - we know Israeli soldiers gang raped a prisoner and weren’t prosecuted. So we know lots of disgusting behavior is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2026, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6086 "2026-05-08T23:57:54Z")
It’s how a soldier described the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6087 "2026-05-09T00:00:53Z")
A soldier who shot a hostage and is trying to save face to their family. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6088 "2026-05-09T00:05:00Z")
If gang rape is allowed, maybe murder is too? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6089 "2026-05-09T00:23:00Z")
Where is the evidence that gang rape is allowed? Do you means the charges brought against those soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6090 "2026-05-09T00:40:05Z")
What charges? Those charges are gone. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6091 "2026-05-09T07:05:51Z")
…what happened in this story really isn’t disputed. > [@The Jerusalem Post](#): > > The IDF’s 828th Brigade has released a preliminary investigation into the [killing of three Israeli hostages](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778217) by IDF combat soldiers in Shejaia in the Gaza Strip. > > The investigation reveals **that on the morning of the incident, soldiers in Shejaia received new instructions to open fire on any man of fighting age that approached them** after several incidents where terrorists disguised in civilian clothes got close to soldiers to attack them. > **[IDF troops who killed hostages told to shoot fighting-age men in Gaza | The...](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778896)** > > Preliminary investigation by the IDF shows instructions changed following cases of terrorists tricking fighters; IDF officer's ceasefire call ignored, leading to fatal shooting of three hostages. Bolding mine. It’s right there in black-and-white. The date of the article? December the 25th, 2023. I instantly knew what story iiandyiii was talking about. And what the mum says echoes what was found in the preliminary report. What happened here was three hostages managed to escape. They hid in a building and hung a sign saying “SOS” and “Help, three hostages” out the window. They emerged shirtless, hands raised, from the building with one of them holding a white flag. An IDF sniper killed Shamriz and Talalka and wounded Haim. Haim ran into a building, the IDF soldiers were ordered to hold fire, Haim was persuaded to leave the building and when he did, an IDF soldier opened fire anyway and killed him. As a result of this: > [@Wiki](#): > > IDF spokesperson Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus stated that no disciplinary action would be taken against the soldiers, and that there would be no change to IDF ground operations as a result of the killing. > **[Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_Haim,_and_Samer_Talalka)** > > On 15 December 2023, three Israeli hostages were killed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the Battle of Shuja'iyya in the Gaza Strip. The men had emerged from a building and were approaching a group of IDF soldiers when they were shot dead, in spite of the fact that they were shirtless and visibly unarmed while waving a makeshift white flag and calling out for help in Hebrew. > The incident provoked widespread domestic and international criticism of the IDF and of the Israeli government's... This incident is emblematic of multiple things. Firstly, the _complete lack of accountability_. This wasn’t an accident. These soldiers weren’t “accidentally” shot. Decisions were made by individual soldiers to execute three unarmed men, one of them holding a white flag and all of them shirtless, one of them after they negotiated with him to exit the building. Secondly: if Israeli soldiers could so casually kill fellow Israeli soldiers that had their hands in the air and were waving a white flag, then how many times have they killed Palestinians in identical circumstances? Well we kinda know. (Spoiled because it shows graphic images of Palestinians killed while holding white flags) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpqI6mCKLpQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpqI6mCKLpQ) [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl) [Israel acknowledges troops killed 2 Palestinians after video captures shooting on a Gaza beach](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-shooting-palestinians-beach-d0ffbbda3c0aa8873483b6685bb9ddd0) Again, no accountability. And it’s not as if this isn’t something that only happened after October the 7th. From 2009: > **[Israel: Investigate ‘White Flag' Shootings of Gaza Civilians](https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/08/13/israel-investigate-white-flag-shootings-gaza-civilians)** For anyone following closely what has happened in Gaza, none of this should be a surprise. It’s well documented. There is a reason why [Yoav Gallant](https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/gallant) has an arrest warrant issued for the _“war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts”_ and why [Benjamin Netanyahu](https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu) has a warrant for his arrest for _“the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts.”_ There is a reason why almost every humanitarian agency along with a broad consensus of scholars who specialise in this, has concluded that the IDF are responsible for multiple atrocities and warcrimes. They committed so many atrocities and warcrimes I think that at its peak after October the 8th right up until the most recent ceasefire, Israel was committing multiple atrocities a week, sometimes _multiple atrocities a day_. I’m happy to provide the receipts as I have _throughout_ this thread. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Because that is one person making a self-serving claim. I think this isn’t a very nice way to describe someone whose son was killed in a very obvious warcrime. Her “self-serving claim” largely doesn’t dispute what was found in the preliminary report. And the soldier who told her this has every opportunity to refute it if he wants. We don’t say the survivors of October the 7th and their families were making “self-serving claims”. I don’t see why we should use that characterisation here. > [@Smapti](#): > > The overwhelming majority of male hostages were rescued without being shot, so “shoot all males” is clearly not an accurate description of the IDF’s rules of engagement. The overwhelming majority of surviving male hostages weren’t “rescued” but released during ceasefires and/or hostage exchanges. The exception was the rescue on the 8th of June 2024 that resulted in the massacre of 276 Palestinians and 698 being injured. So in this case it wasn’t “shoot all males” but indiscriminately slaughter and injure hundreds of men, women and children. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6092 "2026-05-09T18:06:42Z")
> [@The Jerusalem Post](#): > > The investigation reveals **that on the morning of the incident, soldiers in Shejaia received new instructions to open fire on any man of fighting age that approached them** after several incidents where terrorists disguised in civilian clothes got close to soldiers to attack them. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israeli media reports that, in Gaza, rules of engagement are “shoot any adult male you see”, and for women and children, “use your judgement”. Can you “see” the difference? And that was back in 2023, hardly the “current news” posted. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6093 "2026-05-09T23:15:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Can you “see” the difference? …my claim is what happened in this story really isn’t disputed. And if the preliminary report is accurate – that the rules of engagement allowed soldiers “to open fire on any man of fighting age that approached them” – there is very little difference to “shoot any adult male you see” in the eyes of international law. Being a military-aged man doesn’t make you a combatant. It doesn’t matter if you are “approaching” or just minding your own business. Especially when there have been countless reports of military-looking-aged-Palestinians, unarmed, minding their own business, that have been targeted and killed in this very fashion. And the details in this particular case matter. These were effectively _summary executions_. They were unarmed. Shirtless. Hands in the air. Waving a white flag. In Haim’s case they were _ordered to hold their fire,_ but the sniper took the shot anyway. Which is bad enough. But what makes this orders of magnitude worse is the fact that no disciplinary action was taken against the soldiers and no changes to ground operations as a result of the killings. There appears to be more outrage over iiandyiiii presumably accurately quoting what Israeli media have said than there was over this incident, both back when it happened and now that we are talking about it again. Can you explain that for me? I don’t get it. Here is the original tweet on Twitter. I’ve checked and it’s viewable without an account. I can’t understand it, and I’m reliant on translations, but if iiandyiiii has gotten it wrong, please feel free to correct it. > > [@DrDeth](#): > > And that was back in 2023, hardly the “current news” posted. They are _talking about the same incident_. You do understand that, right? That this is about the shootings that happened back in 2023? What’s new is the soldier who killed Yotam Haim spoke to the mum. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6094 "2026-05-09T23:23:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if the preliminary report is accurate – that the rules of engagement allowed soldiers “to open fire on any man of fighting age that approached them” – there is very little difference to “shoot any adult male you see” in the eyes of international law. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In Haim’s case they were _ordered to hold their fire,_ but the sniper took the shot anyway. So they were ordered to hold fire and also to shoot everyone. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2026, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6095 "2026-05-09T23:25:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So they were ordered to hold fire and also to shoot everyone. …yes, they were both ordered to halt fire and also to shoot everyone. Which is probably why the sniper took the shot, why Yotam Haim is dead, and why _nobody faced any consequences_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2026, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6096 "2026-05-11T14:39:43Z")
Here’s an opinion piece that documents and criticizes the recurring rapes of Palestinians, and lack of accountability and justice for those rapists: [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/11/opinion/israel-palestinians-sexual-violence.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.hlA.kfgZ.ZMP5yQa7u9k7&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/11/opinion/israel-palestinians-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.hlA.kfgZ.ZMP5yQa7u9k7&smid=url-share) This Israeli government is overseeing and excusing the serial rape (among other crimes) of Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2026, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6097 "2026-05-11T19:44:21Z")
> **[Hamas committed crimes against humanity, war crimes on Oct. 7, Human Rights...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/hamas-committed-crimes-against-humanity-war-crimes-on-oct-7-human-rights-watch-says)** > > A new report released by Human Rights Watch concludes that Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during the Oct. 7 attacks last year. The report says fighters conducted a coordinated assault... > The report shows how Palestinian fighters conducted a coordinated assault – quote – “designed to kill civilians and take as many hostages with them.” Nearly 1,200 people were killed in Israel that day, including more than 800 civilians; 251 people were taken hostage, with some 120 still held captive in Gaza. > Amnesty International’s investigation found that Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups committed the crimes against humanity of “murder,” “extermination,” “imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law,” “enforced disappearance,” “torture,” “rape… or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity,” and “other inhumane acts.” [https://www.amnestyusa.org/reports/targeting-civilians-murder-hostage-taking-and-other-violations-by-palestinian-armed-groups-in-israel-and-gaza/](https://www.amnestyusa.org/reports/targeting-civilians-murder-hostage-taking-and-other-violations-by-palestinian-armed-groups-in-israel-and-gaza/) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This Israeli government is overseeing and excusing the serial rape (among other crimes) of Palestinians. > There is no evidence that Israeli leaders order rapes. And note your cite is an opinion piece. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=297) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=299)