# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 299
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2026, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6098 "2026-05-11T20:11:28Z")
Huh? How are Hamas rape and war crimes remotely relevant to Israeli rape and war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6099 "2026-05-12T04:26:17Z")
Yeah, _“well the other side does it too!”_ is not an acceptable excuse when it comes to crimes against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6100 "2026-05-12T21:49:53Z")
Thinking about this again… I hope you think long and hard about what your intention here was, because it seems awfully like you are intending to justify or excuse Israeli overseen rape by pointing to Hamas atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6101 "2026-05-12T23:09:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I hope you think long and hard about what your intention here was, because it seems awfully like you are intending to justify or excuse Israeli overseen rape by pointing to Hamas atrocities. Some think that IDF atrocities excuse Hamas atrocities. But you see, again, you talk about that as if really happened, instead of being an opinion piece. The thing is- when accusing the IDF of atrocities, you need better cites than what you have been coming up with. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6102 "2026-05-12T23:12:19Z")
The opinion was about what it all means. But that piece included several factual reported incidents. And there have been multiple other incidents with factual reporting in this thread. Most prominently, the dropping of charges by Israel against the IDF soldiers caught gang raping a prisoner on camera (which you still haven’t responded to). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6103 "2026-05-12T23:15:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > . And there have been multiple other incidents with factual reporting in this thread. Most prominently, the dropping of charges by Israel against the IDF soldiers caught gang raping a prisoner on camera (which you still haven’t responded to). > **[Israeli military drops charges against soldiers accused of Gaza detainee abuse](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/12/israeli-military-top-lawyer-drops-charges-soldiers-palestinian-detainee-abuse-gaza)** > > Five soldiers were indicted over alleged violent abuse and rape of Palestinian man at detention centre in 2024 T_he military advocate general, Itay Offir, said prosecutors lacked key evidence after the victim was sent back to [Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza), and that the conduct of senior officials had affected the chance of holding a fair trial…Offir said in a statement that the video did not present a clear picture of the attack, because “the vast majority of the defendants’ actions are obscured by shields”._ _He also said the decision to release the detainee back to Gaza as part of the October 2025 ceasefire deal negotiated by Donald Trump meant he could no longer give testimony at trial._ So now your turn, address those Hamas atrocities I cited. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6104 "2026-05-12T23:17:34Z")
Israeli prosecutors lied. As to Hamas atrocities, what’s to address? They’re reprehensible. As bad as Israel overseeing atrocities like gang rape caught on video, lying about that video, disregarding the medical proof of rape, and dropping the charges (among many other atrocities). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6105 "2026-05-12T23:30:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israeli prosecutors lied. I could use the same blithe excuse for all your cites- they lied. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6106 "2026-05-12T23:35:34Z")
You could, if there was video and medical proof of rape that was being denied or ignored, like there was in this case. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6107 "2026-05-12T23:41:08Z")
It was neither. They arrested them, indicted them- but didnt proceed with prosecution, for reasons given, And even here in the USA, if the victim leaves the jurisdiction and wont testify, it hurts prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6108 "2026-05-12T23:46:37Z")
That’s bullshit. They had plenty of proof much, much earlier than March. They could have prosecuted immediately (they had the video and medical proof), but didn’t for very openly political reasons. Several right wing Israeli leaders have said that raping Palestinian prisoners is absolutely fine. Much of the Israeli public treats the rapists as heroes. That’s why they didn’t prosecute. You are free to accept these obvious lies if you want, but you can’t expect everyone else to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2026, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6109 "2026-05-12T23:57:38Z")
Back in 2024, shortly after the incident, the prison’s Israeli doctor reported horrific injuries consistent with rape: > **[Doctor who saw abused Gazan detainee: 'I couldn't believe an Israeli guard...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-30/ty-article/.premium/doctor-who-saw-abused-gazan-detainee-i-couldnt-believe-an-israeli-jailer-could-do-this/00000191-0436-df85-a399-ed36f4800000)** > > Prof. Yoel Donchin, a Doctor at Sde Teiman Who Saw the Gazan Detainee After He Was Allegedly Abused by Nine Israeli Reservists, Expressed Shock at the Man's Condition. 'I Was Certain This Was Revenge by the Nukhba Against the Nukhba,' He Said,... And they already had the video then too. It’s been almost two years. Their lies are transparent. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6110 "2026-05-13T00:01:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And they already had the video then too. It’s been almost two years. Their lies are transparent. I gave you a cite from the Guardian, one of the most well respected news organizations, that is known for their fact checking- and somewhat liberal bias- Your response- > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israeli prosecutors lied. You come up with bogus cites that even Al-Jazzra wont touch. There is no use debating with you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6111 "2026-05-13T00:05:10Z")
What the fuck are you taking about? The Guardian just reported what Israeli prosecutors told them. They didn’t report on whether those statements were factually accurate. Israeli newspapers have reported on the facts of the case - I just cited one! It’s a fact that there was video evidence of rape right after the incident. It’s a fact that the Israeli doctor reported horrific injuries consistent with rape. It’s a fact that the rapists were praised and celebrated by right wing Israeli leaders. These are facts reported by Israeli media. It sure seems like you are totally unfamiliar with the facts of this case. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6112 "2026-05-13T00:08:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As to Hamas atrocities, what’s to address? They’re reprehensible. So when will Hamas be prosecuting them? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6113 "2026-05-13T00:11:35Z")
Probably never, because Hamas doesn’t care about atrocities against Israelis. Similar to how the Israeli government is demonstrating they don’t care about atrocities against Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6114 "2026-05-13T06:18:05Z")
Meanwhile, the New York Times ran an editorial incredulously repeating baseless claims that the IDF trains dogs to rape Arab prisoners. > **[When it comes to Oct. 7, the New York Times prefers baseless claims over facts...](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-895947)** > > And even Kristof himself admits that “it’s impossible to know how common sexual assaults against Palestinians are” -- though that does not stop him from going on about it for almost 4,000 words. You’ll forgive me if I don’t take these kind of allegations at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6115 "2026-05-13T07:28:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So when will Hamas be prosecuting them? …five people have been indicted by the International Criminal Court for warcrimes in this conflict. Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri and Ismail Haniyeh were indicted for extermination as a crime against humanity, murder as a crime against humanity, taking hostages as a war crime, rape and other acts of sexual violence as crimes against humanity, torture as a crime against humanity, and other inhumane acts as a crime against humanity, cruel treatment as a war crime and outrages upon personal dignity as a war crime. The other two people that were indicted were Mr Benjamin Netanyahu, who was indicted for “responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024”, and Mr Yoav Gallant, for “responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024.” Warrants for Yahya Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh were withdrawn upon reports of their deaths. It is likely Mohammed Diab is also dead, but this hasn’t been confirmed. So the people most responsible for the appalling, inhumane atrocities committed on October the 7th are no longer of this earth, and I for one do not shed a tear. So the answer to your question is that Hamas won’t be prosecuting them because they have already been taken care of. But there are still two outstanding warrants. Two war criminals that _need_ to be held to account. So it’s about time something was done with the leadership of Israel, who are _also_ responsible for reprehensible war crimes and atrocities. They need to be held to account. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6116 "2026-05-13T07:34:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …five people have been indicted by the International Criminal Court for warcrimes in this conflict. …so not by Hamas, then. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6117 "2026-05-13T08:17:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I gave you a cite from the Guardian, one of the most well respected news organizations, that is known for their fact checking- and somewhat liberal bias- …you were literally given a citation to the New York Times. They are the so-called “[newspaper of record](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record)” because their “news-gathering functions are considered authoritative and independent.” Just because it’s labelled an opinion piece doesn’t mean the story didn’t get put through multiple layers of editorial and legal. It certainly did. Many New York Times insiders have come out to say that the is absolutely zero chance this would have been published if they didn’t have all of their cards lined up. The reason it was an “opinion” article was because it meant the author could express their opinion in the article. But everything all went through at the very least standard levels of editorial oversight, and I’m pretty sure because of the content, there were many additional layers on top of that. You can’t just pick-and-choose what citation is acceptable on a whim. I’ll happily cite either the Jerusalem Post or Al Jazeera if I’ve done my due diligence on the information in the article. I have absolutely zero faith in the leadership of most Western media, _including_ the Guardian or the New York Times, but I’ll still take every article on its merit. I’m not going to dismiss it outright. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The thing is- when accusing the IDF of atrocities, you need better cites than what you have been coming up with. The IDF have committed so many atrocities in Gaza I could post an atrocity a day and I’d still be going five years from now. Shall I start now? Let’s start here: > [@Sky News](#): > > “They’re lying there, just lying there,” Assad says, as the ambulance comes to a stop. “Quick! It looks like an accident.” > > Two other men rush out of the fire engine. Assad pulls the handbrake inside his ambulance. > > Three seconds later, a volley of shots ring out. Rifaat jumps out of the ambulance, diving for cover by the side of the road. > > For five-and-a-half minutes, Israeli troops continue to fire at the unarmed medics. > > As they do so, Rifaat recites the Muslim Shahada - a statement of faith often said before death. > > “Mum, forgive me. This is the path I chose, to help people,” Rifaat says towards the end of the video. > > “Get up!” a voice shouts in Hebrew, before the recording abruptly ends. > **[Two hours of terror: Sky News investigation reveals how Israel's deadly...](https://news.sky.com/story/two-hours-of-terror-sky-news-investigation-reveals-how-israels-deadly-attack-on-aid-workers-unfolded-13348776?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter)** > > New evidence unearthed by Sky News contradicts Israel's official account of the killing of 15 aid workers. Fifteen paramedics. Trying to rescue people. Slaughtered in cold blood. It was all captured on video. They tried to hide it. The IDF slaughtered them and then buried them in a mass grave. Then they lied about it. And that would have been the end of it if not for the video. Sky News painstakingly went over all of the evidence and laid it all out here in the article. A full timeline of the atrocity. And as always, nobody was held accountable. A couple of officers were fired. One of them is now a mercenary in Africa, last I heard. But getting fired isn’t accountability. Not for this. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And note your cite is an opinion piece. I’ve addressed this further up. But here’s the difference between me and a lot of the people taking part in this thread. I have no trouble condemning Hamas atrocities. What they did on October the 7th was evil. I said at the time that Israel had a right to defend themselves. The people that committed the October 7th attack should have and have been held to account. But I don’t understand why people can’t do the same for when the IDF commits atrocities. Like the one we were discussing the other day. You accept that Shamriz and Talalka and Haim were essentially executed, right? No shirt. Waving a white flag. Hands in the air. Two of them were killed straight away. Then the third: there was a negotiated surrender; the soldiers were told not to shoot, and someone shot and killed him anyway. These weren’t accidental deaths. And someone should have been held to account. But nobody was held to account. You agree that this isn’t right? You don’t dispute the preliminary investigation that revealed “that on the morning of the incident, soldiers in Shejaia received new instructions to open fire on any man of fighting age that approached them”? Do you think those are appropriate rules of engagement for what is supposed to be “the most moral army in the world”? 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