# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 300
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6118 "2026-05-13T08:21:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …so not by Hamas, then. …and I’m still waiting for Israel to do something about Netanyahu and Gallant. They can’t even get Netanyahu on corruption. How pathetic. And while we are at it, the United States of America are also shirking its responsibilities to international law in hosting Netanyahu and Gallant. They arrested Maduro. Why can’t they arrest Netanyahu? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6119 "2026-05-13T09:44:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They arrested Maduro. Why can’t they arrest Netanyahu? We shouldn’t have kidnapped Maduro in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6120 "2026-05-13T09:54:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We shouldn’t have kidnapped Maduro in the first place. …but America _should_ arrest Netanyahu. Or at the very least ban him from the country. And when will the Israeli authorities be prosecuting Netanyahu, Gallant and all the others that are responsible for atrocities in Gaza, the West Bank, and in the network of [torture camps](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell) that they are running up and down the country? You can throw Ben-Gvir’s name in there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6121 "2026-05-13T09:59:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but America _should_ arrest Netanyahu. No, we shouldn’t. It’s not our job to be the world police. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And when will the Israeli authorities be prosecuting Netanyahu, Gallant and all the others that are responsible for atrocities in Gaza, the West Bank, and in the network of [torture camps](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell) that they are running up and down the country? That’s up to them to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2026, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6122 "2026-05-13T10:10:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, we shouldn’t. It’s not our job to be the world police. …LOL. > [@Smapti](#): > > That’s up to them to figure out. So it’s up to Hamas to figure things out as well then. I’m glad we’ve finally got some moral consistency going on now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2026, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6123 "2026-05-16T16:41:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Meanwhile, the New York Times ran an editorial incredulously repeating baseless claims that the IDF trains dogs to rape Arab prisoners. > > [When it comes to Oct. 7, the New York Times prefers baseless claims over facts | The Jerusalem Post](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-895947) > > You’ll forgive me if I don’t take these kind of allegations at face value. No one is even trying to refute these allegations. Even when they’ve been reported and supported by Israeli lawyers. They’re just insisting they can’t possibly be true, and the great masses of Palestinian prisoners and former prisoners (including many children!) reporting them must be lying. What if they are true? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2026, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6124 "2026-05-16T19:25:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one is even trying to refute these allegations. And no one tries to refute claims that the British royal family are reptilian aliens that drink human blood and control the international drug trade either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2026, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6125 "2026-05-16T21:00:22Z")
We already know, from video and medical evidence, that the IDF allows rape without prosecution. These are just further reported cases consistent with what we already know. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2026, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6126 "2026-05-16T22:53:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We already know, from video and medical evidence, that the IDF allows rape without prosecution. We know that you claim that’s what happens. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2026, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6127 "2026-05-16T23:11:06Z")
So does the Israeli doctor who treated the victim. But what would he know? I get it. Excusing and rationalizing rape is really hard. It’s much, much easier to just pretend it doesn’t exist, regardless of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6128 "2026-05-18T05:43:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israeli prosecutors lied. I believe the [official statement](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/military-advocate-generals-corps/the-military-advocate-general-s-decision-to-withdraw-the-indictment-against-the-force-100-soldiers-from-the-sde-teiman-base/) is plausible. The video is not a smoking gun for assault, even paired with medical testimony. Additional evidence is needed to tie the two together because the acts on video are obscured by shields and poor angles and the low quality makes it difficult to identify individuals. But most important, per the IDF, the victim made apparently contradictory statements which would undermine the case, unless the victim can fix his tesimony in court. Possibly the statements were about which officers participated in the assault. Possibly the statements were inconsistent with the medical testimony. Either way the defense could use these statements to discredit the other evidence. That the original prosecutor illegally leaked evidence to the press is less problematic for the case, IMO. I think what probably happened is that there was an assault (not necessarily rape or anal penetration). The IDF itself all but admits there was an assault, but they can’t actually say that without a conviction. More speculatively, I think after the old prosecutor resigned, higher ups said the victim will be shipped out with the first prisoner swap, he will not be asked or allowed back into Israel to testify, and the case will be dropped. I feel that if the IDF asked the victim to return and testify, and the victim refused, that would be in their explanation. Ironically, and sadly, I suspect the original prosecutor, who confessed to leaking the video to the press and is currently in Israeli custody, will be fully prosecuted and convicted. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6129 "2026-05-18T06:28:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Some think that IDF atrocities excuse Hamas atrocities. “Some think”? WHO? Who here has said this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6130 "2026-05-18T08:57:31Z")
All of this would have easily been resolved with an actual investigation that was intended to get to the truth rather than cover up an atrocity. But the Israeli government is showing with this, and countless incidents in the West Bank and Gaza, that it has no interest in punishing atrocities against Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6131 "2026-05-18T09:25:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I believe the [official statement](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/military-advocate-generals-corps/the-military-advocate-general-s-decision-to-withdraw-the-indictment-against-the-force-100-soldiers-from-the-sde-teiman-base/) is plausible. …I don’t. For starters: this isn’t an isolated case. > [@wiki](#): > > Several Palestinian prisoners since returned to Gaza reported to UNWRA and the New York Times that a metal stick was used to inflict injury by penetrating the anus of detainees under interrogation and multiple prisoners reported the use of electric shocks, sometimes being forced to “sit in a chair wired with electricity” > … > On 29 July 2024, the Israeli military police detained nine Israeli soldiers for questioning as part of an investigation of a suspected abuse of a Palestinian prisoner, whom _The Times of Israel_ reported “signs of serious abuse, including to his anus”. > … > He reported widespread torture, including by medical staff, as well as electrocution during interrogations, sexual abuse, constant beatings, forced stripping, genital grabbing, and frequent occurrences of rape and gang-rape committed by both male and female soldiers. > … > In one instance, a prisoner in his 40s was handcuffed and forced to bend over a desk while a female soldier inserted her fingers and other objects into his rectum. If the prisoner moved, a male soldier positioned in front of him would beat him and compel him to remain in that position. > … > Transferred from [Tel al-Hawa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_al-Hawa) to the detention camp, he was forced to wear a diaper and placed in a large warehouse-like building with chains hanging from the ceiling. Detainees, also in diapers, were suspended from chains attached to metal handcuffs. Khalili described being chained, electrocuted while wearing a garment and headband connected to wires, and subjected to beatings. > [@The Conversation](#): > > Once he got to the medical facility, Ben said he was astonished by what he saw. Even though this was late December and the place had been operational for more than two months, “patients were still wearing nothing but diapers”. He told us they were still [cuffed](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html?ref=oembed) to their beds and [blindfolded](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-04/ty-article/.premium/doctor-at-idf-field-hospital-for-detained-gazans-we-are-all-complicit-in-breaking-law/0000018e-a59c-dfed-ad9f-afdfb5ce0000) at all times, including while receiving medical treatment. They were not allowed to get out of bed, so had to defecate in bed when they needed to relieve themselves. > … > most of these patients would have been able to go to the toilet, shower and feed themselves had they not been restrained to their beds 24 hours a day. > … > Comparing our findings with testimonies that have emerged over the last two years, we can say with confidence that the use of torture by the Israeli security forces has increased both in scale and severity since then – though this has been denied by the Israeli [government](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqldpyn5ng6o) and [military](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7vje365rno). > > According to [numerous](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-subjected) [verified](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/23/israel-detainees-face-inhumane-treatment) [reports](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-palestinians-gaza-held-secret-detention-describe-torture-new-testimonies), many of the detainees in Sde Teiman were subjected to [sexual violence](https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/content/resources/summary_on_detention_and_alleged_ill-treatmentupdated.pdf) ranging from forced nudity and humiliation to [rape](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqldpyn5ng6o); constant cuffing that led to injuries and in some cases the [amputation](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-04/ty-article/.premium/doctor-at-idf-field-hospital-for-detained-gazans-we-are-all-complicit-in-breaking-law/0000018e-a59c-dfed-ad9f-afdfb5ce0000) of limbs; and beatings using batons, metal bars and the butts of guns and boots, sometimes until detainees lost consciousness. > **[Israeli doctors reveal their conflicted stories of treating Palestinian...](https://theconversation.com/israeli-doctors-reveal-their-conflicted-stories-of-treating-palestinian-prisoners-held-in-notorious-black-site-sde-teiman-264091)** > > Israeli medical staff who treated Palestinian captives in the wake of the October 7 attacks say they are haunted by their experiences. > [@The BBC](#): > > In the men’s testimony: > > - They each describe being stripped, blindfolded, cuffed and beaten > - Some also say they were given electric shocks, menaced by dogs, and denied access to medical care > - Some say they witnessed the deaths of other detainees > - One says he witnessed sexual abuse > - Another says he had his head dunked in chemicals and his back set on fire > > We have seen reports by a lawyer who visited two of the men in prison, and have spoken to medical staff who treated some of them on their return. > **[Gazan detainees tell BBC of torture by IDF and Israel Prison Service](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vje365rno)** > > Interviews with five men held in the months after the Hamas attacks reveal allegations of violence and abuse, adding to reports of misconduct by military and prison staff. I’ve posted dozens more reports and articles about Palestinians being humiliated, sexually assaulted, beaten and tortured in Israeli detention. This didn’t start after October 7th. It goes back _decades_. > **[Israel: Palestinian Healthcare Workers Tortured](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/08/26/israel-palestinian-healthcare-workers-tortured)** > > Israeli forces have arbitrarily detained Palestinian healthcare workers in Gaza since hostilities began in October 2023, deported them to detention facilities in Israel, and allegedly tortured and ill-treated them. > **[israel946.pdf](https://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/i/israel/israel946.pdf)** > > 1246.52 KB > **[Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/)** > > Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied West Bank; extended emergency measures that facilitate inhuman and degrading treatment of... > **[Torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees](https://amnesty.org.nz/torture-of-palestinian-detainees/)** > > Israeli authorities have increased their arbitrary detention of Palestinians across the occupied West Bank. Do you want to guess how many times anyone has been found accountable? This time _they had it on camera_. It should have been a _slam dunk_. But why do you think the (former) Chief Advocate felt they had to leak the footage? Don’t you think that suggests something important? These are _torture camps_. It was captured on video. We only ever saw it because it was leaked. We can see it with our own eyes. And _still_ people look for reasons not to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6132 "2026-05-18T18:48:45Z")
Kristoff reports that several Palestinians told him they were sexually abused by dogs. Maybe it happened, maybe not. But to hear the Zionists tell it, you’d think the claim being made is that the IDF has some massive secret compound where they were training rape dogs by the thousands. This is standard hasbara technique: when a story critical of Israel is published, find the least credible claim or the least trustworthy source cited and hyperfocus on denouncing that and claiming it proves the author’s antisemitism, while ignoring everything else in the article. If we assume everything in that article is a lie except for what is quoting official Israeli sources, it’s STILL incredibly damning. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6133 "2026-05-18T20:52:33Z")
They don’t drop murder cases because the victim isn’t handy by to testify. There is plenty of evidence. There’s no reason to drop this prosecution. Except political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2026, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6134 "2026-05-18T23:12:24Z")
Can’t disagree with that. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2026, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6135 "2026-05-19T00:11:25Z")
Compare the murder of [Jack Palladino](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/jack-palladino-death-murder-charges-dropped-sf-private-eye/) whose case was dropped after a key witness admitted he did not see a suspect reach out the passenger window to try and steal the deceased’s camera, despite seeing them drive away and despite the deceased taking pictures of the suspects while actually falling to his death. There seems to be enough evidence for a civil case against the IDF itself, if that is allowed under Israeli law, but this was a charge of criminal assault against individual officers. The evidence would have to tie the individual officers captured on camera to the injury, despite whatever the victim might have said. It’s _plausible_ that the victim said something that casts doubt on the other evidence, for example, maybe he told investigators that the assault occurred on a different day or time, or that he had been beaten before. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2026, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6136 "2026-05-19T13:42:13Z")
> **[IDF struggles to throttle endless feed of soldiers posting misdeeds on social...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-struggles-to-throttle-endless-feed-of-soldiers-posting-misdeeds-on-social-media/)** > > Troops keep recording their own misconduct, including smashing a statue of Jesus in Lebanon, but the army claims progress in curbing posts that fuel international criticism and risk operational security > Troops keep recording their own misconduct, including smashing a statue of Jesus in Lebanon, but the army claims progress in curbing posts that fuel international criticism and risk operational security One would think that the conduct itself - repeated brutality towards civilians and violations of human rights - would be more of a concern than social media posts depicting it… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2026, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/6137 "2026-05-19T18:55:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > One would think that the conduct itself - repeated brutality towards civilians and violations of human rights - would be more of a concern than social media posts depicting it… How did you get that from your cite\> Your cite mentions nothing at all like that, in fact it says- > While the acts caught on photo or video largely fell below the threshold of war crimes, they still provided evidence of soldiers defying the army’s ethical code and acting with callous disregard toward civilians and their property, blackening the reputation of a military already perceived poorly by much of the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=299) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=301)