# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/733 "2023-10-27T19:40:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > My Orthodox but anti-Zionist grandparents had a great deal to say about America being a refuge for Jews. There are places for Jews to go besides Israel. > > Certainly, I live and own property in America. I’m married to an American. I’m heavily invested here. > > Buuuuuut… in the event that tiki torch wielding maniacs take control of the country… I have somewhere to go. I always had the sense that part of the Zionist movement that lead to the wars that created modern Israel was the notion that Jews weren’t safe anywhere in the world and they needed that refuge lest they be wiped out elsewhere. Given the historical context of the time that was an understandable outlook for the survivors of WWII fleeing Europe. However, it just ain’t so - the US and Canada have been excellent refuges for the Jews. Probably other countries, too, but those are the two I have any ability to speak about. If I had to flee the US due to those tiki-torch Nazis my first choice would be Canada, not Israel. > [@Babale](#): > > No one told you you need to want to live there. Hopefully you never have to. It’s an insurance policy, not a utopia for all Jewish people. Yes, I actually HAVE been told I should want to live there. I’ve been told that by a few Jews. I have been told that by a LOT of evangelical Christians but of course their reasoning is that they need a modern Israel for their end-times death-orgy to commence so there’s another reason not to make that move… As for being an “insurance policy”… a “place to go” that’s under continual siege to the point they have to build something like the Iron Dome is not a safe place to be, it’s a battlefield waiting to happen. > [@Babale](#): > > Please. People chanting “Gas the Jews” aren’t “taking out their anger” at my country. They’re anti-Semites. They’d be there regardless; they’ve been there for 2,000 years. The difference is, if they ever take power in your country, you have somewhere to go. I’m not talking about people chanting “gas the Jews”, I’m talking about people yelling “Free Palestine!” as they attempt to cause me harm. Somewhere to go? Really? The Chief Rabbinate of Israel would not recognize my mother’s conversion to Judaism. So to them I’m not a _real_ Jew, although “Jewish enough” to be granted “residence” in Israel. Wow, skippy. Although it’s my understanding that if I had moved there while young enough I could still be required to serve in the IDF… just not _marry_ a nice Jewish man. Jewish enough to be forced to bleed and possibly die for the country, but not Jewish enough to marry their sons. Or really anyone - not being a member of any of the designated recognized religions I would have no legal right to marry _anyone_ in Israel, I’d have to leave the country to get a civil marriage in another nation. Which is the sort of thing I mean by second-class citizenship. To the Chief Rabbinate I’ll never be Jewish enough to be a full and equal citizen to a “real” Jew. So how is that an “insurance policy” for me? Like I said - I’d try someplace like Canada first, where I have an actual chance to become a full citizen in time. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > My Orthodox but anti-Zionist grandparents had a great deal to say about America being a refuge for Jews. There are places for Jews to go besides Israel. > > “It can’t happen here”? Seriously? It’s not that it can’t happen here so much as Israel is not a guaranteed haven, either. They have marvelous anti-missile technology (although not perfect) but imagine how nasty it would be if it wasn’t there or failed. Or if all the Arab nations, backed by other nations as well, decided to steam-roll over Israel. There’s a lot of things that _could_ happen but right now Jews in the US don’t have rockets fall on their heads or organized raid by Hamas on their neighborhoods. Just as Palestinians in the US enjoy equal citizenship rights to any other qualifying immigrant and don’t have to worry about aerial bombardment by the IDF. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There are people doing their damndest to get it to happen here and some of them have been getting into political power. Yes, there is always a problem of bigots getting into power, and not just for Jews or Palestinians or Muslims. That is a risk everywhere. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The lesson of the Nazis in Germany isn’t that there was something specifically nasty about Germany – there wasn’t. That lesson is ‘if it could happen there, it can happen anywhere.’ Yes. Anywhere. Currently there are people in power in the Middle East with stated goals of ethnic cleansing and even extermination. On both sides of the current war. Right now Israel strikes me as a more dangerous place to be than North America. Could that change? Of course it could. But I can’t predict the future, I can only deal with the present. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/734 "2023-10-27T19:42:28Z")
> [@InfraBlue](#): > > I would hope the international community would intervene long before 6 million Jewish deaths occur. How’d that work out in the '40s? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/735 "2023-10-27T19:47:29Z")
Hell, how did it work out in Rwanda? The UN actually had a presence there, and there were people pushing hard to intervene to stop the genocide. The people weren’t well armed (machetes did most of the killing), and it would have taken only a few thousand soldiers to stop the bloodshed. In the end, the ‘international community’ did nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/736 "2023-10-27T19:55:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If I had to flee the US due to those tiki-torch Nazis my first choice would be Canada, not Israel. That’s like fleeing the Nazis by going to Poland 🤣 > [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m not talking about people chanting “gas the Jews”, I’m talking about people yelling “Free Palestine!” as they attempt to cause me harm. Here’s a hint, if they’re yelling “Free Palestine” while chasing around Jews who have nothing to do with Israel, _Free Palestine_ is a dog whistle for _Gas the Jews_. That’s why supposedly “pro-Palestinian” protests often devolve into [firebombing synagogues](https://apnews.com/article/germany-berlin-synagogue-antisemitism-fdd10f32f7d5efc6da973f00c9a8b030) or [chanting anti-semitic slogans.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/10/pro-palestine-rally-sydney-opera-house-protest-australia-leaders-condemn-anti-jewish-chants) You were certainly Jewish _enough_ for the Nazis. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Somewhere to go? Really? The Chief Rabbinate of Israel would not recognize my mother’s conversion to Judaism. So to them I’m not a _real_ Jew, although “Jewish enough” to be granted “residence” in Israel. The Chief Rabbinate of Israel is composed of old fashioned fool with an archaic sense of what Judaism is. The same anti-Zionists who opposed the creation of Israel because they feared that the Jewish people would adopt a national identity rather than a religious one. The fact that they have as much influence as they do is a travesty. That Israel leaves marriages to religious authorities without providing a fully secular alternative is a failing of Zionist ideals (per the tenants of actual Zionism, not the post-hoc joke that is Religious Zionism) and something that will hopefully change soon. But it hardly makes you a second class citizen, and I say this as someone who married a non-Jewish woman and so face exactly the same questions. Also, in a move that mostly benefits gay couples but also interfaith ones, the supreme court rules in 2022 that online marriages from other nations are valid and must be recognized, soany Israelis who want to marry someone the rabbis frown upon can just file the paperwork online. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/737 "2023-10-27T20:11:06Z")
Moderating: Let’s get back on track. I think we’ve done enough history for the time being. Either people are convinced or they aren’t, but pulling up yet more history is unlikely to change more minds. And there have been a few too many “your opinion is noted”. It’s sounding passive aggressive. There is actually news that folks might want to discuss. At least, I got news alerts today that Israel has started the ground war in earnest. So let’s look more to the present, and discuss this war, and not just delve into all the things that led up to it. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/738 "2023-10-27T20:15:36Z")
With that mod note I deleted without posting my latest screed (you’re welcome) and I wish a Shabbat Shalom to anyone who may be observing such and Salaam/Peace to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/739 "2023-10-27T20:34:18Z")
deleted ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/740 "2023-10-27T20:35:31Z")
deleted ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/742 "2023-10-27T20:38:28Z")
**Read the modnote, it is in yellow and hard to miss.** ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/744 "2023-10-27T20:49:25Z")
Yes sir. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/745 "2023-10-27T22:50:36Z")
The international community has reached the “stern finger-wag” stage. [https://www.cnn.com/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-friday-intl-hnk/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-friday-intl-hnk/index.html) > [@](#): > > It also calls for “the immediate and unconditional release of all civilians who are being illegally held captive” but does not name Hamas as the captor. Today’s UN is a deeply unserious body. The Kims would be ruling the entire Korean peninsula if they’d been like this in 1950. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/746 "2023-10-28T12:48:49Z")
The more I read and think about it, the more I lean towards the position that an Israeli invasion of Gaza in order to destroy Hamas is the wrong decision… not because it’s morally or ethically wrong (though that is part of it – not that it necessarily is wrong, but that the correct moral balance based on the collateral damage likely will be extraordinarily hard to achieve), but because _this Israeli government is incapable of making the right decisions in order to correctly balance risk, civilian casualties, and long-term security thinking_. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/747 "2023-10-28T12:54:38Z")
I think it’s a wrong decision because i think it will make Gazans even less likely to want to do business with Israel in the future. And other Arabs, as well. But i don’t know if there are any right decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/748 "2023-10-28T13:13:15Z")
I don’t think there are any right decisions here, just bad and less bad. I am not convinced the land invasion of Gaza is among the less bad, especially as it is likely to be conducted by the current Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/749 "2023-10-28T13:46:19Z")
I’m astounded by the Patriotism of Israelis. Ex soldiers that already did their service are volunteering to leave America and join the upcoming war. It chokes me up because they’re leaving family and comfortable lives in America. They know the risk that it could get them killed. The delay in invading Gaza must be helpful in training these volunteers and adjusting back to military service. > **[Thousands of military reservists from NYC rushed to Israel to fight Hamas](https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/news/military-reservists-from-nyc-rushed-to-israel-to-fight-hamas/)** > > About 2,000 Israeli military reservists and former soldiers from the Big Apple packed up their bags to fight in the war against Hamas. > [@](#): > > Three days after Hamas slaughtered 1,400 people in Israel, Ariel Nurieli didn’t think twice about ditching his math and political science coursework at Columbia University to reenlist in the Israeli Defense Forces. > > “People say, ‘Wow you left everything behind’ . . . but if we don’t do this there won’t be anything to come back to,” Nurieli, 25, told The Post from the frontlines of the country’s northern region, as a ground invasion of Gaza looms. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/750 "2023-10-28T14:30:01Z")
Former Israeli prime minister Naftali Bennett thinks a full-scale invasion of Gaza is just what Hamas wants. He urges Israel instead to isolate northern Gaza and wait out Hamas fighters. (The full article is paywalled) > **[Opinion | A Plan to Defeat Hamas and Avoid a Bloodbath](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/opinion/israel-hamas-strategy-bennett.html)** > > A former Israeli prime minister sketches a plausible path to victory. > Militarily, the plan he sketches begins by having Israel establish a security zone in Gaza two kilometers deep while also cutting the territory in half, somewhere between Gaza City and Khan Younis. Already, nearly 800,000 Gazans have fled from north to south despite efforts by Hamas to keep them in place. Two humanitarian corridors, subject to Israeli controls, will allow civilians still trapped in the north to move south. Israel will permit water, food and medicine to reach the south and will create medical and humanitarian safe havens in the buffer zone. > This is the most manpower- and firepower-intensive part of Bennett’s plan, but it does _not_ involve a thrust into the heart of Gaza’s cities. It leaves the north of Gaza completely cut off — above all, of energy. > […] > “I don’t want to get into a Viet Cong-type war of tunnels,” Bennett says. “I want to surprise them by letting them dry out in the tunnels. Imagine a Hamas terrorist waiting in one of those tunnels with his weapons. The one thing he doesn’t expect is to be stuck there for nine months with no logistics backing, running out of food, cold, wet and miserable.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/751 "2023-10-28T14:35:38Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > Former Israeli prime minister Naftali Bennett thinks a full-scale invasion of Gaza is just what Hamas wants. He urges Israel instead to isolate northern Gaza and wait out Hamas fighters. That sounds like a much less bad option to me. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/752 "2023-10-28T14:47:31Z")
Cutting off Hamas resources is a brilliant plan. It also minimizes civilian casualties. Unfortunately Israel has assembled a huge army that’s ready to attack at any time. The political pressure to attack must be intense. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/753 "2023-10-28T14:48:40Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That sounds like a much less bad option to me Keep in mind that many civilians would be getting isolated in northern Gaza for nine months in that scenario too. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/754 "2023-10-28T14:50:59Z")
That might actually be worse. It is not like it is just Hamas in the North. A long siege with supplies already low as opposed to a massive but fast strike is not likely to be good for either side. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=34)