# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/775 "2023-10-29T06:44:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Wonder if maybe there’s no need to go into tunnels? The IDF could just seal off every tunnel entrance with concrete as it finds them, and thus force the Hamas militants inside to either come out or be entombed alive. That would probably be a war crime - and I mean a _legit_ war crime, not the “genocide is any time when a civilian dies in an urban battle” kind of war crime I’ve seen people breathlessly shouting about on Twitter for the last several weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/776 "2023-10-29T08:13:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Who would be in Hamas tunnels but people working with Hamas? I think it’s safe to say that anyone found down in those tunnels is a fair target. Hostages already released have stated being held and moved around in the tunnels underneath Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/777 "2023-10-29T10:27:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > the IDF could just seal off every tunnel entrance with concrete as it finds them There are hundreds of miles of tunnels.There must be hundreds of entrances, and thousands of ventilation shafts > [@Smapti](#): > > That would probably be a war crime - and I mean a _legit_ war crime, Why? If your enemy has dug trenches, you attack the trenches. (see World War 1, the current Ukraine war, and probably every war in history) The tunnels are just deep and well covered trenches, well stocked with ammunition, and used as cover for attacking… If Hamas is locking prisoners and hostages inside their attack tunnels, then that is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/778 "2023-10-29T10:49:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would be a certainty that Shayetet 13 (Israeli Special forces) have trained for tunnel warfare. …maybe? But that is a naval commando unit. One would rather think combat engineering and other ground-based special forces units would be more directly involved. > [@chappachula](#): > > If your enemy has dug trenches, you attack the trenches. (see World War 1, the current Ukraine war, and probably every war in history) In Vietnam, the Americans certainly tried things like bombing tunnels, collapsing tunnels, flooding tunnels, suffocating everybody inside with tear gas, etc., but even back then there were countermeasures to those tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/779 "2023-10-29T20:20:07Z")
Using thermobaric weapons in tunnels would probably be on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/780 "2023-10-29T20:27:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That would probably be a war crime - and I mean a _legit_ war crime, not the “genocide is any time when a civilian dies in an urban battle” kind of war crime I’ve seen people breathlessly shouting about on Twitter for the last several weeks. I think you have it exactly backwards. Plenty of the tactics that have killed civilians have been–according to folks like the UN, WHO, Red Cross, etc.–violations of international treaties. But sealing off tunnels? Not sure which specific Geneva article it violates. If there’s a worry, though, set up a 3" diameter pipe at each sealed-off tunnel, with a crook halfway down (to prevent line of sight/shot) and a sound-activated speakerphone at the outside. Folks who want to surrender can come to the pipe and receive further instructions for surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/781 "2023-10-29T21:46:47Z")
The idea of Turkey’s President joining forces with Hamas is most unsettling. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/782 "2023-10-29T21:50:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It would not surprise me if those “crawler bots” would just gun down anyone found in the tunnels regardless. The IDF does not seem to be exerting much effort to avoid collateral damage. couldnt you just inhabilitate a 100s of 1000s of dollars crawler bot with a horizontal lock bar in a tunnel??? like in the letter “H” ??? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/783 "2023-10-29T22:22:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The idea of Turkey’s President joining forces with Hamas is most unsettling. That’s an understatement, If Turkey comes to the military aid of Hamas, that will likely put them in direct conflict with the US at some point. How does NATO handle that? What if Israel retaliated against Turkey and Turkey invokes article 5? I don’t see NATO turning against Israel, let alone the US. If Turkey gets involved in a shooting war with Israel, it will either be very contained or it will likely cause a crisis in NATO. Turkey could wind up expelled or something, which would drive them into the arms of the Russians/Chinese/Iranians. That would be a bad result. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/784 "2023-10-29T22:35:34Z")
Article 5 can not be invoked if the NATO member is the one that starts the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/785 "2023-10-29T22:37:15Z")
The Crawler bots are more like Boston Dynamics’ Spot, a four legged robot. And Israel’s are armed with Light Antitank Weapons (LAWs rockets): > **[Armed Goat](https://strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_20231026214933.aspx)** > > OCT 18, 2023 U.S. Marines with Tactical Training and Exercise Control Group, Marine Air- Ground Task Force Training Command and scientists with the Office of Naval Research conduct a proof-of-concept range for the Robotic Goat at Marine Corps... Apparently Israel ordered 25,000 LAWS rockets a couple of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/786 "2023-10-29T23:14:14Z")
it still seems fairly easy to entangle with a couple of bars/nylon nets/ropes in a very reduced space like a tunnel that would be easy for any person to cross but not for those dogs/goats … I guess we shall know more in a few weeks if those become relevant … in case they are that would be the first time for a “Terminator” scenario (that is not airborne). boy, that scenario and the whole AI … I feel we moved extremely swiftly towards the Terminator world - something that was completely ficticious 10 years ago, might today quite well be a reality. ---
**Author:** ![Gretzky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gretzky/32/6682_2.png) [@Gretzky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretzky)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/787 "2023-10-30T01:15:06Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > For Israel’s sake, I hope they avoid the US’ error following 9/11 of squandering international support after having been attacked. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I suspect that ship has already sailed… It has sailed, been assaulted, burned, destroyed, sunk, rotted, and designated as a future OceanGate tourist expedition. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/788 "2023-10-30T01:36:03Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > boy, that scenario and the whole AI … I feel we moved extremely swiftly towards the Terminator world - something that was completely ficticious 10 years ago, might today quite well be a reality. Not in this century. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/789 "2023-10-30T13:43:44Z")
Sorry- what? Turkey has made noises about aiding Hamas? Can someone shed some light on this? A quick search found some stuff about Erdogan praising Hamas, but I haven’t seen anything more than that… ? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/790 "2023-10-30T14:33:19Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Turkey has made noises about aiding Hamas? Can someone shed some light on this? A quick search found some stuff about Erdogan praising Hamas, but I haven’t seen anything more than that… ? I can’t believe people are taking Erdogan’s bloviating that seriously. Brett Devereux had a great column about why Hezbollah and others in the region might send mixed messages about this whole thing. Erdogan is no Hezbollah, but he does pander to the religious conservatives, including having Muslim Brotherhood ties. > [@](#): > > On the one hand, they want to avoid triggering a massive response from an opponent that enjoys escalation dominance; unlimited escalation is generally quite bad when your counter-parties are a global nuclear superior and a very prickly _also nuclear_ highly militarized regional power. That means signalling to Israel and the United States that, whatever else you are doing, you don’t intend to become directly involved in the current conflict and if left out, will stay out. Now that sounds easy: just declare you aren’t a party to the conflict and then _do nothing_. > > _ **But** _. _But you also have to communicate with members and supporters_. And Hezbollah needs them to hear a very different message: ‘we are committed to the cause, we are effective and can achieve the cause, and we are actively moving towards that goal, inflicting pain on the enemy as we do.’ Doing _ **nothing** _ demoralizes their fighters and potentially costs them supporters as they are seen as impotent in the face of the enemy. > > So the question becomes: how do you signal capability and commitment _without_ jumping in front of the freight train currently heading towards Gaza? The answer may well be a search for a ‘ **minimum acceptable response** ‘ – leaders looking for the smallest strike they can make which will display resolve to their own supporters, while still being sufficiently small that outsiders interpret it correctly as a sign the group does _not_ intend to intervene. > **[Fireside Friday, October 27, 2023 (On Politics in Strategy)](https://acoup.blog/2023/10/27/fireside-friday-october-27-2023-on-politics-in-strategy/)** > > Fireside this week! Next week we’ll finally close out the addenda to the How to Roman Republic 101 series with a look at provincial governance, but I don’t think that will be done in ti… Now, that’s not to say that this move has had _no_ effect. Erdogan only recently normalized diplomatic relations with Israel and his comments about Hamas will certainly disrupt this. But it doesn’t mean Turkey actually wants to join this war. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/791 "2023-10-31T00:36:42Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Or look for someplace they can live securely if things get bad enough (according to the [Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israelis-want-foreign-citizenship-passport-to-prosperity/) 56% of Israelis polled would like a foreign passport, and 27% specifically mentioned they were worried about the future of the State of Israel.) That 56% of Israelis wanted a _second_ passport in addition to their Israeli one. Who _wouldn’t_ want a second passport? I can’t believe that 56% wasn’t much higher. I already possess one of the most coveted passports in the world (USA) and yet I’d be overjoyed to have a second passport to the EU, UK, Canada, Oz, NZ, Scandinavia, Japan and probably much of South America and Asia, too. So I’m not sure I see the significance of that poll result. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/792 "2023-10-31T02:06:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But it doesn’t mean Turkey actually wants to join this war. I suspect you’re right but it’s still disturbing. Israel needs to remember There’s a billion Muslims who hate them on a good day. They need a tangible, short term goal that creates a long term restructuring of Gaza into a productive peaceful society. Otherwise it’s Germany after WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/793 "2023-10-31T06:57:55Z")
A Nevada man has been arrested for making death threats against Sen. Jacky Rosen, who is Jewish and identifies as pro-Israel, citing the war as his justification. > **[Nevada man charged for making antisemitic threats to Jewish US senator |...](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/30/politics/nevada-man-charged-antisemitic-threats-senator/index.html)** > > A Las Vegas man who allegedly left antisemitic voicemail threats to kill one of Nevada’s senators now faces a federal charge. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/794 "2023-10-31T14:56:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They need a tangible, short term goal that creates a long term restructuring of Gaza into a productive peaceful society. They might as well ask for a pony while they’re at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=36)