# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/795 "2023-11-01T18:42:25Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > They might as well ask for a pony while they’re at it. The terms of WW-II were unconditional surrender and the defeated countries were rebuilt and restructured into peaceful societies. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/796 "2023-11-01T23:04:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > From the Hamas perspective, both of these results would constitute a “win”. Hamas leadership does not give a rat’s ass for the Palestinian civilians - their deaths are just grist for the propaganda mill. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Hamas may have as their principle goal: The eradication and extermination of every Jew on the planet, but their secondary goal is to enrich themselves. Could you provide a cite for this, in particular your comment that “Hamas may have as their principle goal: The eradication and extermination of every Jew on the planet”? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/797 "2023-11-02T01:53:12Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Could you provide a cite for this, in particular your comment that “Hamas may have as their principle goal: The eradication and extermination of every Jew on the planet”? Yeah, I don’t think that claim is supportable, at least not on paper. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are or may be some Hamas members who do have genocidal aspirations for the complete global extermination of all Jews everywhere, but that’s [not what it says in their mission statement.](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas) > [@](#): > > In 2017, a revised Hamas manifesto included three departures from the 1988 charter […] First, Hamas accepted the establishment of a Palestinian state separate from Israel —although only provisionally. […] Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter. Third, the document did not reference the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas was originally an offshoot. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/798 "2023-11-01T23:51:55Z")
> [@Hamas attacks Israel, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/570): > > …and so Israel is not guilty of war crimes if they bomb a building from which Hamas’s actions removed protection. I hope that all claims of war crimes committed by Israel are investigated and appropriate action is taken, if necessary. > [@](#): > > Numerous charges of war crimes have been levied against Israel for its actions against civilians. These charges have come from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B’tselem, and human rights groups and experts, including UN rapporteurs. > **[War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)** > > Military engagements > Attacks > See also Details: > **** > > > [@](#): > > > > A group of UN special rapporteurs asserted Israel’s indiscriminate airstrikes are “absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime.” > > > > … > > > > Under the Rome Statute, it is a war crime to intentionally attack places of worship in non-international conflict. > > > > … > > > > Philippe Lazzarini, the UNRWA Commissioner-General, called the attack “outrageous” and showing “a flagrant disregard for the lives of civilians.” > > > > … > > > > On 19 October, the Israeli Air Force bombed the Church of Saint Porphyrius, where hundreds of Christians and Muslims were sheltering, killing 16 people. The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem condemned it as a “a war crime that cannot be ignored.” > > > > … > > > > On 24 October, UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres called for an immediate ceasefire, after stating Israel had committed “clear violations” of international humanitarian law. On 1 November, following two airstrikes on the Jabalia refugee camp, the United Nation Human Rights Office stated, “We have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes.” > > > > … > > > > Several actions taken by the Israeli army, including its blockade on electricity, food, fuel and water, were characterized as collective punishment, a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II. > > > > … > > > > Tufts University law professor Tom Dannenbaum wrote that the siege order “commands the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, which is a violation of international humanitarian law and a war crime.” On 25 October, Oxfam stated Israel’s use of “starvation as a method of war” was a violation of international law, and that Gaza was being “collectively punished in full view of the world.” > > > > … > > > > The EU’s chief diplomat Josep Borrell called Israel’s cutting off water, electricity and food as “not in accordance with international law.” > > > > … > > > > On 24 October, Human Rights Watch criticized Israel’s refusal to allow fuel or water into a Gaza, terming it a war crime. On 29 October, Karim Ahmad Khan stated Israel’s impeding aid to Gaza may constitute a crime under the International Criminal Court. > > > > … > > > > Israel is alleged to have broken medical neutrality, a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. > > > > … > > > > In a statement, the Palestine Red Crescent demanded “accountability for this war crime.” > > > > … > > > > On 14 October, the World Health Organization said the killing of health care workers and the destruction of health facilities “denies civilians the basic human right of life-saving health” and is prohibited by International Humanitarian Law. > > > > … > > > > The Israeli evacuation order was characterized as a forcible transfer by Jan Egeland, a Norwegian diplomat involved with the Oslo Accord. Egeland stated, "There are hundreds of thousands of people fleeing for their life — [that is] not something that should be called an evacuation. It is a forcible transfer of people from all of northern Gaza, which according to the Geneva convention is a war crime. > > > > … > > > > Israeli historian Raz Segal termed it a “textbook case of genocide.” The action was condemned by the UN, Doctors Without Borders, UNICEF, and the IRC. > > … > > > > On 31 October, after an investigation, Amnesty International stated that an October 16 Israeli white phosphorus attack was indiscriminate, unlawful, and “must be investigated as a war crime”, due to its use on the populated Lebanese town of Dhayra, which injured at least nine civilians. > > > > … > > > > On 1 November, Reporters without Borders asked the International Criminal Court to begin a priority war crimes investigation into the killing of nine journalists. > > > > … > > > > On 10 October, the Israeli Defence Force published a video that appeared to show IDF soldiers shooting four surrendering Palestinians… Killing surrendered civilians or combatant is a war crime. > > > > … > > > > On 17 October, 10 days after the start of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, 880 scholars of international law and genocide signed a public statement saying: “As scholars and practitioners of international law, conflict studies, and genocide studies, we are compelled to sound the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/799 "2023-11-02T00:27:09Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > A group of UN special rapporteurs asserted Israel’s indiscriminate airstrikes are “absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime.” Cite that Israeli airstrikes are _indiscriminate_? > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Under the Rome Statute, it is a war crime to intentionally attack places of worship in non-international conflict. Only if those places of worship are not being used by armed forces to conduct military operations. Incidentally, it is also a war crime to use places of worship, hospitals, etc to stage military operations and doing so means that those locations are not protected. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > On 24 October, UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres called for an immediate ceasefire, after stating Israel had committed “clear violations” of international humanitarian law. On 1 November, following two airstrikes on the Jabalia refugee camp, the United Nation Human Rights Office stated, “We have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes.” Ahh, yes. The _indiscriminate_ air strike that _just happened_ to kill a high ranking Hamas leader who planned the Oct 7 attacks. > **[Israel says new strike on Gaza refugee camp kills second Hamas leader, first...](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-jets-strike-gaza-camp-says-hamas-commander-killed-2023-11-01/)** > > Israeli forces killed another Hamas commander on Wednesday in their second strike on Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp in two days, the military said, as the first group of civilian evacuees from the besieged enclave crossed into Egypt. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Several actions taken by the Israeli army, including its blockade on electricity, food, fuel and water, were characterized as collective punishment, a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II. By whom? And did the people making this statement have a plan for how aid can enter Gaza without arming Hamas? I could go on, but here’s the point. I fully agree that claims of Israeli war crimes should be thoroughly investigated, and I hope that for once Israel is held to the same standard as every other nation in its situation. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/800 "2023-11-02T01:08:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > that _just happened_ to kill a high ranking Hamas leader who planned the Oct 7 attacks. …this isn’t a “get-out-of-jail” card. The rules of war don’t allow you to indiscriminately kill innocent men, women, children, don’t allow you to destroy houses, trap people under rubble, just because one side has _claimed_ that a single high-value-target was in the area. > [@Hamas attacks Israel, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/570): > > and so Israel is not guilty of war crimes if they bomb a building from which Hamas’s actions removed protection. Can you point out where in the Geneva Conventions, or otherwise, what is required to “remove protections?” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/801 "2023-11-02T01:54:55Z")
Where may I post a comment in response and still relate to the previous comments? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/802 "2023-11-02T02:04:42Z")
Here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/803 "2023-11-02T02:11:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can you point out where in the Geneva Conventions, or otherwise, what is required to “remove protections?” The piece i listened to on NPR discussed that. And the answer is “it’s complicated”. I wish I’d been able to find it, because it was nuanced and interesting. Also, given the fog of war, it’s extremely hard to know which side of the line any particular attack is at this moment in time. The commentator was pretty clear that the initial Hamas raids were a violation, but most everything since then has been in the “it may be, it depends on details we don’t know” area. There may be trials and a reckoning at some later point, though. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/804 "2023-11-02T02:24:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I fully agree that claims of Israeli war crimes should be thoroughly investigated, and I hope that for once Israel is held to the same standard as every other nation in its situation. I’m glad we can agree on something! > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > A group of UN special rapporteurs asserted Israel’s indiscriminate airstrikes are “absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime.” > > Cite that Israeli airstrikes are _indiscriminate_? Cites for the groups alleging that Israeli airstrikes have been indiscriminate are in the Wikipedia article and include UN special rapporteurs, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the United Nation Human Rights Office, and Amnesty International. I would imagine others have also made the accusation. Investigations by appropriate authorities would need to be undertaken to substantiate or refute the allegations. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > On 24 October, UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres called for an immediate ceasefire, after stating Israel had committed “clear violations” of international humanitarian law. On 1 November, following two airstrikes on the Jabalia refugee camp, the United Nation Human Rights Office stated, “We have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes.” > > Ahh, yes. The _indiscriminate_ air strike that _just happened_ to kill a high ranking Hamas leader who planned the Oct 7 attacks. Over a hundred people were reported killed and a market and residential complex destroyed. This raises the question of proportionality in that the incidental civilian loss or damages must be proportionate with the military advantages. If this proportionality requirement is not followed, humanitarian law considers the attack to be indiscriminate. I’m not a war crimes lawyer, so I’m not able to assess the particulars of this case. The United Nation Human Rights Office stated, “We have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes.” > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > Several actions taken by the Israeli army, including its blockade on electricity, food, fuel and water, were characterized as collective punishment, a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II. > > By whom? And did the people making this statement have a plan for how aid can enter Gaza without arming Hamas? Israel’s president Isaac Herzog accused the residents of Gaza of collective responsibility for the war. The Wikipedia article cites various groups and individuals describing the situation as collective punishment, including Doctors Without Borders, Oxfam, the EU’s chief diplomat Josep Borrell, the UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, and Human Rights Watch. I’m not a lawyer, but it seems incredibly war-crimey to me to deprive over 2 million innocent civilians of food, water, supplies and so on in order to try and deprive a targeted 40,000 armed individuals of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/805 "2023-11-02T02:39:44Z")
> [@Hamas attacks Israel, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/561): > > Given the population ratio, killing 1200 Israelis is equivalent to killing 50,000 Americans. More population ratio perspectives: > According to latest Palestinian Ministry of Health statistics, it would be more like the equivalent of half a million American children killed, and one and a half million total American dead. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/806 "2023-11-02T03:18:50Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > According to latest Palestinian Ministry of Health statistics, it would be more like the equivalent of half a million American children killed, and one and a half million total American dead. Does that figure include the 82,500 Americans who died when an American rocket misfired and landed on an American hospital? (Population of Gaza is 2 million to the US 330, that’s a ratio of 1 to 165 so the “500” at the hospital become 82,500 Americans in your analogy) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/807 "2023-11-02T03:27:25Z")
Are you still claiming it was 30-50 people killed in the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion? > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/432): > > Which is exactly why Hamas lied and balooned 30-50 dead into 500. Here are various estimates of the number of dead from that incident. Gaza Health Ministry: 471 Director of the nearby al-Shifa Hospital: 250 American Friends of the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem: 200 US intelligence agencies: 100 to 300 people, and that the actual number was likely on the low end of that range ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/808 "2023-11-02T03:36:44Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Are you still claiming it was 30-50 people killed in the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion? What? No, that’s not the point at all. Yes, Hamas (sorry, the _Gazan Ministry of Health_) wildly overestimated the death toll, doubling it at the very least. That’s not really the point, since even if 500,000 people had died the death count _due to Israeli action_ wouldn’t budge, since it was Palestinian militants who blew up the parking lot of the Al-Ahli hospital (which, unfortunately, was packed full of refugees). ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/809 "2023-11-02T03:56:54Z")
I do not see cause to doubt the Palestinian casualty figures in any significant way. On the one hand: > [@](#): > > “When the Hamas health agency comes out with the numbers, take it with a pinch of salt,” Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, Israeli military spokesman, said in a briefing Thursday. But he repeatedly declined to offer any alternative number of Palestinian casualties. On the other hand: > [@](#): > > The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions. > > “The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” > > In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies. > > But an outlier is the ministry’s death toll from an explosion at al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City last week. > > … > > Hamas, as Gaza’s ruling authority, exerts control over the Health Ministry. But it’s different than political and security agencies that Hamas runs. > > The Palestinian Authority, which controlled Gaza before Hamas overran the area in 2007, retains power over health and education services in Gaza, though it’s based in the occupied West Bank. > > … > > In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies. > > — 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385. > > — 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251. > > — 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256. > > While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll. > > … > > “These figures are professionally done and have proven to be reliable,” said Omar Shakir, Human Rights Watch’s Israel and Palestine director… > **[What is Gaza's Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war's death...](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033)** > > As the Israel-Hamas war rages, international and local monitoring groups in Gaza have been unable to keep up. The only source reporting how many people have been killed in Hamas-ruled Gaza is the Ministry of Health. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/810 "2023-11-02T05:56:59Z")
I asked a very simple question: does the casualty count presented by the Ministry of Health still include the 471 people they claimed died at the hospital? Because even if all 471 deaths were real, 0 of them were caused by Israel. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I do not see cause to doubt the Palestinian casualty figures in any significant way. I see the fact that they blantantly fabricated 471 deaths to add to the count (again, even if all 471 deaths were real, assigning them _to Israel_ is a fabrication) as a reason to doubt their casualty count. Clearly, your mileage varies. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/811 "2023-11-02T06:23:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I could go on, but here’s the point. I fully agree that claims of Israeli war crimes should be thoroughly investigated, and I hope that for once Israel is held to the same standard as every other nation in its situation. Heh. Don’t worry, B - I got it, even if they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/812 "2023-11-02T10:41:58Z")
I don’t know whether the casualty count includes the 471 people that were claimed died at the hospital. From the AP article: > [@](#): > > But Thursday [October 26th], in response to U.S. doubts over its figures, the ministry released a 212-page report listing every Palestinian killed in the war so far, including their names, ID numbers, ages and gender. A copy of the report shared with the AP names 6,747 Palestinians and says an additional 281 bodies have not yet been identified. The list did not provide a breakdown by location. The Wikipedia page for that day, October 26th, lists 7,028 killed in the Gaza Strip. Would you dispute that large numbers of Palestinian civilians have been killed in the war? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/813 "2023-11-02T12:25:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cite that Israeli airstrikes are _indiscriminate_? > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > Under the Rome Statute, it is a war crime to intentionally attack places of worship in non-international conflict. > > Only if those places of worship are not being used by armed forces to conduct military operations. Incidentally, it is also a war crime to use places of worship, hospitals, etc to stage military operations and doing so means that those locations are not protected. It’s clear that other nations/groups/interests are attempting to hold Israel to what they claim is a higher moral standard while not at all insisting that Hamas do so. > [@Babale](#): > > Ahh, yes. The _indiscriminate_ air strike that _just happened_ to kill a high ranking Hamas leader who planned the Oct 7 attacks. I think some parties are questioning two things: 1. Whether or not said Hamas leader(s) were actually present where the airstrike occurred, and 2. Whether killing said leader(s) was worth the number of civilians killed to accomplish that goal And of course some people are just taking sides and not being rational at all. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > Several actions taken by the Israeli army, including its blockade on electricity, food, fuel and water, were characterized as collective punishment, a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II. > > By whom? And did the people making this statement have a plan for how aid can enter Gaza without arming Hamas? Cutting off all supplies to 2.5 million people is a dick move. Such a siege _will_ kill people if it goes on for any length of time, and the longer it is maintained the more people will die. The questions that come up are “is it worth it?” and “are there any alternatives?” The only alternatives I’ve heard involve a lot of block-by-block urban fighting which would be ugly. However, with Hamas estimated to be about 25,000 people that’s imposing extreme deprivation on 100 civilians for every Hamas member that might be in Gaza (and the leadership known to be in Doha, Qatar). People outside the conflict are going to act with revulsion to that however much the IDF and Israeli government argue that it is necessary. The fact that roughly half the civilians killed will be children only throws fuel on the fire. What Israel and the IDF are doing here is NOT a good thing. I don’t think Israel has really made a case that it is the least bad thing to do in this situation. Proving such things in the “fog of war” is nearly impossible, so then you’re back to potential bias on the part of the observer/questioner. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/814 "2023-11-02T12:28:05Z")
I am curious if British citizens believed the fire bombing of Dresden to be a war crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=37)