# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/875 "2023-11-02T16:58:55Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is a stupid conversation. I’m not sure why you find it stupid. It gets to the heart of minimizing civilian casualties. IDF has made a calculation of how many Palestinian casualties are acceptable, and you and I disagree on that point. I think the benefits gained by targeting the Hamas soldier in the refugee camp do not outweigh the cost in human lives and do not help Israel’s goals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/876 "2023-11-02T16:59:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is a stupid conversation. No, it’s actually a great question. An even better one would be this: Let’s say that Netanyahu’s health worsened, and he went to a hospital for treatment. Hamas fired rockets at the hospital in an attempt to kill him. Many Israeli patients were killed, as was Netanyahu. Would you consider that attack a terrorist attack, or a legitimate act of war, or something else? I know I would consider it an atrocity–not because Israeli civilians were killed, and not because Hamas carried it out, but because civilians were killed by an armed power in an action that they knew would kill far more civilians than military targets. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/877 "2023-11-02T17:01:02Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think the benefits gained by targeting the Hamas soldier in the refugee camp do not outweigh the cost in human lives and do not help Israel’s goals. You may well be right, but with a specific militarly action like this personally I just don’t feel qualified to know exactly who they were targeting, how important he was, what the calculus was in terms of the likelihood of civilian casualties. You also don’t know the downstream consequences. The message that “we will target you wherever you hide” may make Hamas less likely to use refugee camps for military operations in the future. I’m not trying justify what Israel did, maybe they just fucked up. I’m just saying that I don’t think this level of analysis of specific actions in the fog of war is particularly useful. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/878 "2023-11-02T17:04:04Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m not sure why you find it stupid. It gets to the heart of minimizing civilian casualties. IDF has made a calculation of how many Palestinian casualties are acceptable, and you and I disagree on that point. I think the benefits gained by targeting the Hamas soldier in the refugee camp do not outweigh the cost in human lives and do not help Israel’s goals. How would you suggest Israel achieve its goal of eradicating Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/879 "2023-11-02T17:05:30Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > So letting Hamas continue to exist in any form is simply a non-starter. It’s not on the table. It’s not even in the same _room_ as the table. It’s something which Israel cannot allow to happen for the sake of its own survival. How would you suggest preventing Hamas from existing in any form? Would it involve killing everyone affiliated with Hamas? While I don’t think this would be possible, let’s say for argument’s sake that Israel is able to kill everyone affiliated with Hamas. Is that the end of the problem, in your opinion? What about the sons and daughters, brothers and sisters of those Hamas-affiliated people killed? Will they not seek revenge? Would there not be a subsequent generation of people motivated by hatred towards Israel? What would be your solution to deal with them? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/880 "2023-11-02T17:10:29Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > How would you suggest Israel achieve its goal of eradicating Hamas? A political process. I don’t think this would be possible, though, with your viewpoint that everyone should unequivocally support Israel, as it would involve recognising the rights and grievances of the opposing side. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/881 "2023-11-02T17:11:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, it’s actually a great question. Hypotheticals about Netanyahu (why not Hitler?) in a hospital aside… It is certainly a valid question whether the IDF could _achieve the objective of removing Hamas_ using different tactics that would result in fewer civilian casualties. But I simply have no idea. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/882 "2023-11-02T17:14:33Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > A political process. Muffin baskets and kittens? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/883 "2023-11-02T17:15:33Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It is certainly a good question whether the IDF could achieve their objective of removing Hamas using different tactics that would result in fewer civilian casualties. > > But I simply have no idea. Do you? I know that if achieving their objective requires killing many thousands of civilians, they must not achieve their objective. THey must find a different objective. Eliminating Hamas is a vague objective. Does that mean killing everyone who officially works for Hamas? Does that include every member of the Ministry of Health? Does that include everyone who worked anywhere in the Hamas government, even as a street cleaner? Does that mean killing every politician? Does that mean killing every person who took up a weapon under Hamas’s official rubric? Or does that mean getting rid of Hamas’s power in Gaza? If it’s the former–if they’ve declared a death sentence on everyone who since 2006 has had any taxpayer-funded position in Gaza–that’s an unacceptable goal. If it’s the latter, it’s still ill-defined. Yes, attacking Hamas and crippling their ability to carry out similar attacks is important. But to do it correctly–that is, without killing thousands of innocent children–means doing it differently from how it’s being done now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/884 "2023-11-02T17:17:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Muffin baskets and kittens? Super helpful and productive conversational approach there. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/885 "2023-11-02T17:18:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know that if achieving their objective requires killing many thousands of civilians, they must not achieve their objective. THey must find a different objective. This is our fundamental point of disagreement, then. I think leaving Hamas in power will ultimately be far more harmful. I wish it could be done _without_ any civilian casualties, but I think the war is justified. (I’m guessing we’d probably also part company on whether bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified.) ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/886 "2023-11-02T17:22:06Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > A political process. > > I don’t think this would be possible, though, with your viewpoint that everyone should unequivocally support Israel, as it would involve recognising the rights and grievances of the opposing side. Let’s be clear here. The opposing side of this war is Hamas. I recognize the rights and some of the grievances of the Palestinian people. I also recognize the rights and some of the grievances of the Israeli people. I believe there could a political solution to the existence of both Israel and Palestine, and Israel is partially complicit as to why one has not been reached yet. But Palestine is equally if not more complicit as to why a political solution has not been reached yet. But right here and right now Israel is at war with Hamas. Who’s official charter states “our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel. What sort of political process did you have in mind to sort that out? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/887 "2023-11-02T17:22:22Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is our fundamental point of disagreement, then. I think leaving Hamas in power will ultimately be far more harmful. I wish it could be done _without_ any civilian casualties, but I think the war is justified. > > (I’m guessing we’d probably also part company on whether bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified.) The Hiroshima/Nagasaki comparison is excellent, because yes, I think those were atrocities that never should have happened, and that the rhetoric that led to them was self-serving and self-deceiving. Military equipment demands to be used, and there was never a clearer demonstration of that principle than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/888 "2023-11-02T17:23:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Super helpful and productive conversational approach there. Did you think saying that “a political process” is the solution was productive? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/889 "2023-11-02T17:24:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As I said before - convince me this is the least bad alternative. Present any alternative for Israel to take in dealing with Gaza. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Actions that kill the vast majority of people in Gaza - regardless of who perpetuates them - certainly do meet the definition of both ethnic cleansing and genocide. This is so disconnected from reality I don’t even know where to begin. Israeli actions are _orders of magnitude_ removed from killing “the vast majority of people in Gaza”. What are you even _talking about_? > [@Broomstick](#): > > My grand parents were opposed to Zionism and went to America where they built a better live for themselves and their descendants. I’m not sure what any of that proves. Well, hopefully the ongoing thread about which countries would take American refugees is never necessary. I highly doubt it will be any time soon. But I wouldn’t bet my life (literally) on the idea that the US will _never_ decide it has had enough of its Jewish residents. You may be more trusting than I am, but I recall many places that were great for Jewish communities until suddenly they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/890 "2023-11-02T17:24:38Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Did you think saying that “a political process” is the solution was productive? Do you believe the decades-long Palestine-Israel issue can be solved militarily? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/891 "2023-11-02T17:25:12Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Do you believe the decades-long Palestine-Israel issue can be solved militarily? I believe that removing Hamas from power is the only viable starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/892 "2023-11-02T17:26:09Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Have we _ever_ acted as ethically during war time as Israel are acting right now? That’s a serious question. I don’t recall us _ever_ taking a fraction of the care which Israel takes to avoid civilian casualties. That’s what I alluded to earlier, when I suggested that it would be nice if for once Israel was held to the same standard as other nations. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/893 "2023-11-02T17:26:47Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > What sort of political process did you have in mind to sort that out? The two-state solution. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/894 "2023-11-02T17:27:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, attacking Hamas and crippling their ability to carry out similar attacks is important. But to do it correctly–that is, without killing thousands of innocent children–means doing it differently from how it’s being done now. How does one “do it correctly” when Hamas makes a point of using its citizens as human shields and canon fodder? It’s an easy thing to say when it’s not your back up against the wall. Send in commandoes? Lots of innocent Gzans will still die. Magical Jewish Space lasers than can target a Hamas soldier or leader without touching the family who’s shop sits next to his rocket launching facility? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=41)