# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/955 "2023-11-02T19:48:28Z")
I am going to step back from this thread for a bit. I think I have said what I have to say in the best way I know how, and I’m not sure how much actual communication is going on, and I don’t except myself from that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/956 "2023-11-02T19:50:45Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Mind you while we’re all here debating and nitpicking on how Israel is supposed to fight Hamas, Hamas has been indiscriminately firing hundreds of rockets at Israeli towns and cities every day. And, at the same time, sellers are brutalizing and murdering Palestinians in the West Bank, while the Israeli government does virtually nothing to stop them or protect those Palestinians. > **[How a Campaign of Extremist Violence Is Pushing the West Bank to the Brink](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/02/world/middleeast/west-bank-palestinians-israel-settlers.html)** > > Israeli settlers and Palestinians have been locked in a cycle of bloodshed for decades. But extremist settler attacks could send the conflict out of control. This doesn’t mean that Israel isn’t justified in trying to take out Hamas, but it does mean that I have little faith that the Israeli government is doing everything they can to minimize harm towards and protect Gazans while achieving that goal. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/957 "2023-11-02T19:53:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t imagine that anybody is Israel is thinking of the approach “just kill as many Hamas militants as possible” as a “plan”, but is there in fact a plan beyond that? If so, what? There is certainly no clarity on what the post-war plan is yet. But what plan could possibly work while the Hamas regime is _still in power_ in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/958 "2023-11-02T20:04:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And, at the same time, sellers are brutalizing and murdering Palestinians in the West Bank, while the Israeli government does virtually nothing to stop them or protect those Palestinians… > > This doesn’t mean that Israel isn’t justified in trying to take out Hamas, but it does mean that I have little faith that the Israeli government is doing everything they can to minimize harm towards and protect Gazans while achieving that goal. I am baffled and disheartened that Israel is still allowing this despicable behavior to continue. I know little about what’s going on in the Israeli government right now aside from what they’ve said about prosecuting the war in Gaza, but perhaps leaving Netanyahu in place even temporarily was a mistake. There is surely the political will to get rid of him. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/959 "2023-11-02T20:58:54Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > If Putin was hospitalized and Ukraine blows up his hospital, would you feel oh so sorry for all those poor innocent Russian patients in the same building? Of course I’d feel bad for the civilians also killed. I’d also be open to hearing an argument that the bombing was still justified in the context of that war. That doesn’t mean I’d automatically agree it was justified, but if bombing one hospital put an end to a war on terms I find acceptable that would qualify as something I’d call a lesser bad compared to the war continuing for months or years longer. One of the reasons war is hell is because of calculations like that. None of it is what I’d call good, it’s all evil to one degree or another. I’d prefer to see the least evil occur but hey, I’m not in charge of any of this. > [@chappachula](#): > > After WWII, the Germans and Japanese abandoned their fanatic, irrational culture, and returned to normal civilized behavior > They admitted defeat, laid down ALL their weapons (try imagining Hamas doing that!), accepted that their fanatic warmonging had been a bad idea, and willingly rebuilt their society. It didn’t actually go quite as smoothly as that. The rebellious folks who didn’t want to stop fighting weren’t appearing live on TV back then but they did exist. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m assuming that one of the biggest problems with Hamas is that they kill civilians. If Hamas limited their actions to attacks on IDF soldiers, they’d be a lot less despicable. I’m assuming that _their attacks on civilians_ is the main reason why they’re the bad guys. That, and their deliberate torture, both mental and physical, of civilians while they’re killing them adds an extra helping of evil to Hamas. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > I mean Hamas does have a bigger problem that has no analogy in the Israeli government which is that they believe in an extremist religious fantasy that could never actually happen. Even if they established themselves as a government over a Palestinian state with entirely legitimate military means (i.e. by attacking military targets and getting the Israeli government to agree to surrender/peace) the result would be a terror state similar to the Taliban regime where they would only succeed in suppressing their people and could not possibly bring about their impossible utopia. More like a sequel to ISIS where even other extremist Islamic groups can’t stand them and work together to eliminate them. The other Islamic types are willing to tolerate the Taliban in Afghanistan as long as they stay in Afghanistan. ISIS wasn’t willing to stay put in their little corner of the world, they had fantasies of taking it all. And so do Hamas. So I agree that Hamas needs to be put down like rabid dogs. However, there are a LOT of people in Gaza who aren’t Hamas. I’d prefer not to kill them. > [@chappachula](#): > > In the current war, among all the people calling for Israel to stop defending itself and commit to a ceasefire–is there ANYBODY who is even hinting that Hamas must completely disarm? Yes, I think an end point here is that Hamas, if not totally wiped out, would have to be completely and permanently disarmed. How to do that? Hell, I’m not even an armchair general. There won’t be a ceasefire until _both_ sides can agree to lay down arms for at least a short period of time. I don’t see that happening this week. > [@Babale](#): > > Hamas is the government in Gaza. Part of the criticism that Bibi got for allegedly propping up Hamas is due to the fact that Israel provided Hamas with water, electricity, gas, and food to distribute to Palestinians which helped them gain legitimacy. The election of Hamas to run Gaza was problematic from day one. However, the mus-governing is on _Hamas_, not anyone else. Hamas _could_ has stepped up to the plate and investigate in the people it was in charge of instead of building rockets and bombs, but it didn’t. So… from my viewpoint case closed on Hamas. They had their chance. They’re evil and need to be eliminated. > [@Babale](#): > > That is a racist argument that should be condemned. The Gazans, like the Germans and the Israelis, are human beings who are capable of rational choices. ^ This. I’ve known quite a few Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians in my life here in the US. I’m not going to pretend we were all friends but we all manage to co-exist without trying to kill each other. It very much IS possible, there is nothing in the human beings living in Gaza that makes them inherently evil or inherently unable of changing. I do wish people would stop such characterizations as that is very much bigoted. At the same time, we need to recognize that not everyone _capable_ of change is going to change. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As Israel goes after Hamas in Gaza, settlers are ramping up brutal attacks (including murders) of Palestinians in the West Bank. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s awfully hard to even consider supporting Israeli actions in Gaza when their leaders don’t seem to put even minimal effort in protecting Palestinians in the West Bank. How can we trust that they’ll protect Gazans when they’re not even trying to protect Palestinians? ^ This is a big issue, and reason why people are asking if the Israeli government is planning genocide rather than dealing with a terrorist group named Hamas. > [@Dorjan](#): > > But if you increase it a hundred-fold see, it would be like trying to drink from a fire hose and Hamas wouldn’t be able to take it all! So the civilians will get it! Or something. I’ll just point out that the global community has been sending food aid to North Korea since the late 1990’s to prevent epic starvation even though everyone sending such aid knows that the military gets fed first in that country. Yet still it is done, to avoid millions of deaths. So doing such a thing is not unprecedented. Is Gaza a situation where that makes sense? That’s up for debate. Discuss. > [@Dorjan](#): > > You have a really strange notion of war. Please name one war, in all of human history, where one side has done this. Then I will consider the plausibility of holding Israel to that standard. Well… if you define “war” very, very broadly… Technically the US and North Korea are still at war. A ceasefire was signed decades ago and has held, but there was no declaration of peace. Yet the US has sent food to North Korea during times of famine. And the government of North Korea, when distributing such aid, has claimed it is “tribute” given by the US out of fear of Dear Leader but whatever. It kept people from starving to death. Also, during the Cold War there was some limited trade between the USSR block and the US/NATO block. But neither of those are actively shooting wars such as what is currently going on between Hamas and Israel. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Hamas bet that the Israelis wouldn’t be willing to kill so many civilians. > > Whatever makes you think that? I think Hamas wanted to provoke Israel into atrocities, so as to reduce international acceptance of Israel. And that Hamas is delighted to have Israel kill huge numbers of Palestinians, because that will help Hamas recruit the survivors. Well… OK, you might have a point there. The Hamas leadership sitting in Doha might not have cared, or might have planned for atrocities while cackling and twirling their Evil Villain mustaches, but I question if that was the goal of the Hamas people actually living in the places most likely to be bombed. I’m not a mind reader, though, I’m just guessing. I’m guessing that Hamas thought having Israeli hostages might mitigate Israeli reactions. If so, they were wrong. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Meanwhile - I’m not playing the game where I ask you for something then you demand I provide it. I asked YOU to demonstrate to me that any other alternative to what’s currently going on is worse that IDF’s current course of action. Were any alternatives even considered? > > I don’t see any alternative other than ignoring the attacks or giving in to Hamas’ demands, which is why I have argued that this would be unacceptable and worse. Well, OK - that IS arguing that the current situation is the least bad if I understand you correctly. You would find either ignoring the attacks or giving in the the demands of Hamas more objectionable. That’s two points on the side of “this is least bad”. Other people are questioning if what the IDF is currently doing is the ONLY possible response or if there is yet another one that is neither of your worse alternatives and is also less bad than the current strategy. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > It’s a bit of a tangent, but Israel/IDF could have been a LOT more protective of people in the West Bank instead of letting attacks by Jewish settlers go unpunished. It would have taken the wind out of a lot of sails in regards to accusations of ethnic cleansing. The West Bank is Israel’s territory, they should be protecting everyone in it equally but they aren’t. > > I think Israel should evict the settlers entirely, just like they were evicted from Gaza. Hopefully that doesn’t turn out as disastrously as withdrawing from Gaza, of course. We’re in agreement there. > [@Babale](#): > > Have you read the news? Israeli forces have already entered Gaza. The “siege” ends when Israel defeats Hamas, and in the mean time Israel can bring aid into areas they control, once they gain control of populated areas. No, I have not actually read anything along those lines in the news other than “The IDF has entered Gaza”. Nothing about aid, nothing about food, water, fuel, or medicine in areas controlled by Israel. If that is actually occurring they need much better publicity for it. I have heard some foreign nationals have managed to evacuate through Eqypt, and some severely injured Palestinians have also been allowed to leave to get medical treatment. Bravo, that’s an improvement. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > And that judgement will fall on every single Jewish person in the entire world even though Israel isn’t even quite half of the global Jewish population. > > Are you seriously blaming anti-Semetism on the existence of Israel? You give anti-Semites far too much credit by assuming there’s reason to their hatred. In case you didn’t notice, anti-Semitism was a problem long before the existence of Israel, and even if Palestinians managed to push us all into the sea I guarantee you that wouldn’t make the hatred stop. Wow. It would help if you DON’T read into what I write things I haven’t written. No, I am not blaming antisemitism on Israel. What Israel does, however, can “feed the troll”. Just as when the US does something eff’ed up feeds anti-Americanism elsewhere, or when the UK does something eff’ed up people still pissed off about the old Empire get upset. That’s why in the US we have people yelling “Free Palestine” while threatening to cut the throats of Jewish students at a university. (Fortunately, they caught that guy before he actually carried any of that out) It gives the bigots ideas and incentives they might not otherwise have, and decreases sympathy among the non-bigots and fence-sitters. When the government and military of Israel do things they are perceived as despicable, or criminal, they don’t create antisemitism but they do feed it. Minorities are judged as a group based on the actions of just their worst individuals. It ain’t fair but it is often reality. > [@Babale](#): > > Much of that was done **in coordination with Israel**. Israel is a world leader in precision targeting. _What are you even **talking** about?_ To start - I was answering a different poster @WalterBishop . Why not go back to the post I was responding to? Nothing I stated in any way contradicts that the US worked with Israel to achieve some of the goals. The US military works with a _lot_ of different nations and entities. Again, you are reading things into my post that just aren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/960 "2023-11-02T21:10:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Now, if your argument is that Israel should have recognized that Hamas would never moderate years ago, and done this sort of ‘invade while sending in aid’ deal way back then - sure, I agree, in hindsight; but to be honest with you I also believed that Hamas would eventually moderate themselves because of the mistaken belief that despite their bluster they truly would do some _realpolitiking_ and realize that they have no choice but to negotiate with Israel, and therefore was also opposed to a costly and deadly (on both sides) ground invasion until the events of Oct 7 made it clear how dangerously wrong I had been. I was very happy that Israel didn’t go in in 2014, for example. The problem with that approach - assuming Hamas would make rational and logical decisions - is that apparently they are not drive by reason and logic but rather by religious fervor, which does not respond readily to reason and often does things that appear completely illogical to outsiders. Unfortunately, there was no way to know which category Hamas fell into without giving them the time to show by their actions which category they were in. > [@Babale](#): > > The question “what next” will need to be answered by the Israeli public, which means an election, which will happen once the situation in Gaza stabilizes. It seems that Bibi personally is completely discredited by the Oct 7 massacre, and my hope is that so is his party’s approach towards the Palestinians, but it remains to be seen exactly how things will shake out. I just hope that no one tries to use a potentially extended emergency to avoid elections and keep Israel under the control of a non-elected group for a long term. A risk in any democracy going back to Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/961 "2023-11-02T21:55:51Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > From the Hamas perspective, both of these results would constitute a “win”. Hamas leadership does not give a rat’s ass for the Palestinian civilians - their deaths are just grist for the propaganda mill. > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > Hamas may have as their principle goal: The eradication and extermination of every Jew on the planet, but their secondary goal is to enrich themselves. > > Could you provide a cite for this, in particular your comment that “Hamas may have as their principle goal: The eradication and extermination of every Jew on the planet”? > > Thanks. Did you manage to find a cite to support your comment, or was the content of your post just grossly-misinformed opinion? It’s ironic that you made a post that criticized Hamas for propaganda and then you made another post that consisted of grievous disinformation or, indeed, outright propaganda yourself. The spreading of blatant falsehoods and mistruths do not help anyone in this long-standing conflict. Hamas have made clear that their struggle is political, not religious in nature, including in this op-ed by the group’s leader shortly after Hamas’ 2006 election victory: > [@](#): > > Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. … Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us – our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people. > > We shall never recognize the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognize the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else’s sins or solve somebody else’s problem. > > But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/962 "2023-11-02T22:24:18Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Hamas have made clear that their struggle is political, not religious in nature, including in this op-ed by the group’s leader shortly after Hamas’ 2006 election victory: Could you clarify, are you trying to _defend_ Hamas as an organization? Are you arguing that the words in a 2006 op-ed are a more appropriate way to judge their intentions than the terroristic murder of 1400 people, deliberately designed to destabilize the evolution of peaceful accords in the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/963 "2023-11-02T22:26:33Z")
Hamas is nothing if not politically and PR savvy They may have “revised” their charter in 2017 , but nothing of their actions has indicated that they no longer adhere to their original charter which explicitly states: > The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian > movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is > Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of > Palestine. > > Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will > obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. > > The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] > consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one > can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it. > > The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and > kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the > rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind > me, come and kill him. > > The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the > circle of struggle against World Zionism… Islamic groups all over > the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped > for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews. THAT was and remains the true goal of Hamas as demonstrated not only by their actions but their rhetoric, educational indoctrination of Palestinian children, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/964 "2023-11-02T22:35:54Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Hamas have made clear that their struggle is political, not religious in nature, including in this op-ed by the group’s leader shortly after Hamas’ 2006 election victory: Where’d you source your quote from? I don’t doubt it’s genuine, I’m just curious whether this Hamasnik is the same as this other Hamasnik who said something a bit different, or if they’re two different guys. > **[WATCH: Israel is only the first target, warns Hamas commander](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-765304)** > > Mahmoud al-Zahar: "The entire planet will be under our law, there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors." > [@](#): > > “The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," FWIW, I think both statements are equally full of shit. > [@Dorjan](#): > > THAT was and remains the true goal of Hamas as demonstrated not only by their actions but their rhetoric, educational indoctrination of Palestinian children, etc. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/965 "2023-11-02T22:38:33Z")
Here’s what Palestinian children are taught in UN-run schools in Gaza: > **[2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf](https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf)** > > 8.12 MB ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/966 "2023-11-02T22:43:14Z")
The Hamas leader that wrote that op-ed, Khaled Mashal, ceased being overall leader of the group in 2017. The same year saw a hardliner, Yahya Sinwar, become leader of the Hamas movement within the Gaza Strip (which is not the same position as overall Hamas leader). He is not so open to compromise with Israel. Absolutely I see the October 7th attacks as a Crossing of the Rubicon moment for the group, a point of no return. All those within Hamas that supported or participated in the massacres of civilians must face justice, in this world or the next. As pointed out earlier in the thread, though, Hamas’ mission statement does not call for the extermination of Jews worldwide. That is disinformation. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/967 "2023-11-02T22:48:14Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Hamas’ mission statement does not call for the extermination of Jews worldwide. That is disinformation. If Hamas would like to come out of their tunnels and discuss this defamation, I’m sure that the IDF will stipulate they will only face consequences for the Jews that they actually murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/968 "2023-11-02T22:51:07Z")
One caveat worth making is that while **Hamas** ’s ambitions may be limited to the elimination of Israel that Hamas is just one small piece of the Muslim Brotherhood, which includes organizations of similar ideology around the world, including in non-Muslim-majority countries; and the Muslim Brotherhood’s goals are quite a bit grander. But not all MB chapters are as… intense… as Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/969 "2023-11-02T22:55:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Where’d you source your quote from? The quote is from Khaled Mashal’s Wikipedia page. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t doubt it’s genuine, I’m just curious whether this Hamasnik is the same as this other Hamasnik who said something a bit different, or if they’re two different guys. The person in the article you cited is an individual who does not represent the ideology of the Hamas group as a whole, just as I could find a similar quote from a far-right Israeli official that you would not characterize as the ideology of Israel as a whole. Here’s another Hamas official calling for the slaughter of Jews worldwide from 2019, after which Hamas released a statement saying his views did not represent their official positions: > [@](#): > > Hamas is distancing itself from statements by one of its leaders on Friday, who called for the slaughter of Jews worldwide. > > Speaking at a March of Return rally last Friday, Hamas political bureau official Fathi Hammad urged Palestinians across the globe to “slaughter Jews” if Israel doesn’t lift its blockade of the coastal enclave by Friday, July 19, and implement its understandings with the terrorist organization. > > In a statement Monday, the Islamic movement said recent remarks by Fathi Hammad, a member of its politburo, “don’t represent the movement’s official positions.” > > Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, said Hammad’s remarks conflicted with its amended charter that restricted Hamas’s conflict to the Israeli occupation, “not the Jews or their religion,” according to the rare statement. [https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/07/15/hamas-official-calls-on-palestinians-across-the-globe-to-slaughter-jews/](https://www.israelhayom.com/2019/07/15/hamas-official-calls-on-palestinians-across-the-globe-to-slaughter-jews/) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/970 "2023-11-02T23:05:47Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > The person in the article you cited is an individual who does not represent the ideology of the Hamas group as a whole Really, before continuing this, can you explain why on earth it is important at this point whether the official Hamas policy is to kill all Jews worldwide, just the Jews in Israel, or just the 1400 people that they recently murdered? What difference does it make to you? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/971 "2023-11-02T23:08:47Z")
You don’t believe in the truth? Even on a subject such as worldwide genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/972 "2023-11-02T23:12:30Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > You don’t believe in the truth? Even on a subject such as worldwide genocide?.. The only “truth” you’re talking about here is what ideology was inside the head of Hamas political leadership. I don’t care about that because it is inconsequential. Whatever ideology led Hamas to murder 1400 people on October 7th, they are done. The ideology of political entities that will still exist in 2024 is worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/973 "2023-11-02T23:17:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The ideology of political entities that will still exist in 2024 is worth discussing. So you are saying unequivocally and conclusively that Hamas will not exist in 2024? (It’s a shame betting is against forum rules) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/974 "2023-11-02T23:25:15Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > So you are saying unequivocally and conclusively that Hamas will not exist in 2024? As a governing regime - yes, unequivocally it will be gone. Will there still be underground terrorist cells identifying as Hamas, certainly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=45)