# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/995 "2023-11-03T01:00:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > While I find the way that you buy Hamas propaganda hook, line, and sinker …this isn’t correct, and ask respectfully that you retract. > [@Babale](#): > > and describe standard military operations These aren’t standard military operations. > [@Babale](#): > > as “atrocities” The siege _is_ an atrocity. And history will not look favourably on the country that enacted it, nor the countries that support it. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/996 "2023-11-03T01:01:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it isn’t an accurate summary. Not when the evidence presented that “Hamas are placing their military infrastructure under hospitals” are as flimsy and ridiculous as this: Hamas’s use of Al Shifa Hospital has been known for over a decade. It has been reported multiple times by independent foreign press that they at the very least heavily used the hospital as a staging area for rocket attacks, conducted interviews with the press from the Hospital, etc. The use of Hospitals in general for command centers, storage, and rocket launching sites has been SOP for Hamas since the beginning of their existence. Even Al Fatah has called out and criticized Hamas for using the hospital’s x-ray facility as a jail and interrogation room. The Palestinian Authority issued an official statement accusing Hamas’ security services of having turned medical centers into jails and interrogation facilities. Again these accusations and observations have been going on for well over a decade. I find it much more believable that Hamas is in fact using the hospital as their HQ based on this as opposed to your assertation that that’s not something they’d do because of, reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/997 "2023-11-03T01:02:08Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Would you care to provide examples to help illustrate the point you’re trying to make? It’s right there in what he quoted (emphasis added) > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > The person in the article you cited is an individual who does not represent **the ideology of the Hamas group** as a whole, just as I could find a similar quote from a far-right Israeli official that you would not characterize as **the ideology of Israel as a whole**. I think it’s a fair point he’s making, and it’s important to talk about Hamas as at the same organizational level as Likud/IDF, not at the same level as Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/998 "2023-11-03T01:09:09Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > By doing better for the Palestinians than Hamas is. Instead, what Israel is doing is the opposite of driving a wedge between them. I agree. How on Earth is Israel going to do that _while Hamas controls the Gaza strip_? Removing Hamas is a necessary first step to improving Palestinian lives. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Would you care to provide examples to help illustrate the point you’re trying to make? Sure, right in the post I quoted where you compared Hamas to Israel rather than Hamas to a far right party… ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/999 "2023-11-03T01:22:47Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Hamas’s use of Al Shifa Hospital has been known for over a decade. It has been reported multiple times by independent foreign press that they at the very least heavily used the hospital as a staging area for rocket attacks, conducted interviews with the press from the Hospital, etc. The use of Hospitals in general for command centers, storage, and rocket launching sites has been SOP for Hamas since the beginning of their existence. Even Al Fatah has called out and criticized Hamas for using the hospital’s x-ray facility as a jail and interrogation room. The Palestinian Authority issued an official statement accusing Hamas’ security services of having turned medical centers into jails and interrogation facilities. Again these accusations and observations have been going on for well over a decade. > **[Sewing needles, dishwashing liquid and kids on the floor: The unthinkable...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-02/inside-gazas-al-shifa-hospital/103051772)** > > In Gaza's busiest hospital, doctors do what they can to treat a tidal wave of desperate patients injured in Israeli air strikes. WARNING: Some readers might find the details and images in this story distressing.  > [@](#): > > So for these two children, there are no beds.The cold, dirty linoleum floor is the only space doctors can place them. > > Their dad is also on life support and their mother is missing – presumed dead after an Israeli air strike hit their neighbourhood. > > The children’s uncle Abdallah el Houssari squats down near over his niece and nephew, keeping vigil. > > Their bodies are draped in silver thermal blankets, as oxygen machines beep continuously, keeping them alive. > > Blood is splattered on the ground all around them. > > … > > Al-Shifa Hosptial is Gaza’s busiest medical facility, and it usually has capacity to treat 700 patients. > > Its doctors are now treating more than 5,000 Palestinians. It’s a hospital. It is currently treating thousands of people and serving as shelter for many others who have nowhere else to go. Regarding the firing of rockets: > [@Wiki](#): > > Reporting from the Gaza hospital to the Finnish newspaper _[Helsingin Sanomat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingin_Sanomat)_ , Aishi Zidan reported that a rocket was fired from the area of the hospital. This was seized upon by the Israeli press, prompting the journalist to take to Facebook to note that her words had been taken out of context and used as propaganda, and that the rocket had actually been fired from “somewhere behind the hospital”.[[30]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital#cite_note-30) > **[Al-Shifa Hospital](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital)** > > Al-Shifa Hospital (Arabic: مستشفى الشفاء Mustašfā š-Šifāʾ \[musˈtaʃ.fa‿ʃ.ʃiˈfaːʔ\]) is the largest medical complex and central hospital in the Gaza Strip, located in the neighbourhood of northern Rimal in Gaza City. > Originally a British Army barracks, the site was transformed into a healthcare facility, the Dar al-Shifa or "house of healing", by the government of Mandatory Palestine in 1946. The hospital was expanded during the Egyptian and later Israeli occupations during the 1980s. In the 2... I note that you very carefully used the words “staging area for rocket attacks”, which could mean anything from “rockets were stored here” to “a couple of Hamas operatives met outside the front door.” Its a rather nebulous, meaningless thing to say when we are talking about whether or not a hospital is a legitimate target. I no longer accept these talking points as gospel any more. Not when Netanyahu’s standard of evidence is a poorly made CGI video. If civilians are there the target should meet the highest of all possible thresholds before it is designated an acceptable target. The fact that we have over 3000 dead children, with no sign that the rate of children dying every day will come down any time soon, show that this threshold hasn’t been met. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1000 "2023-11-03T01:28:47Z")
It’s an active hospital and a Hamas operations center (at the very least) or HQ at the same time. Yes, these are real hospitals with real patients undergoing care. Which is exactly why Hamas sets up shop in them. I don’t know why you seem to have such a hard time grokking that. And yes, their doing so is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1001 "2023-11-03T01:33:16Z")
@Banquet_Bear I’ll ask you the same thing I asked others in here. Hamas as a matter of policy embeds itself within the civilian populace of Gaza, using them as human shields. Do you support them or do you believe they should be taken out by Israel? If the latter, exactly how do you propose that they do that? So far the answer has been either a rehash of what Israel is already currently doing presented as something new and novel, “the political process”, or wishful thinking. Do you have something better? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1002 "2023-11-03T01:37:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The siege _is_ an atrocity. And history will not look favourably on the country that enacted it, nor the countries that support it. The whole situation is an atrocity, and the responsibility lays squarely with Hamas. > [@Dorjan](#): > > It’s an active hospital and a Hamas operations center (at the very least) or HQ at the same time. Yes, these are real hospitals with real patients undergoing care. Which is exactly why Hamas sets up shop in them. I don’t know why you seem to have such a hard time grokking that. And yes, their doing so is a war crime. Exactly. **Exactly**. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1003 "2023-11-03T01:55:26Z")
Just because it’s a war crime for Hamas to set up military operations in a hospital doesn’t mean that it might not also be a war crime to bomb that hospital. There’s a concept of proportionality. How much does the bombing impact Hamas’ military strength and how many innocent civilians were killed. Yes, I’m sure that every nation at war has violated the laws of war from time to time. That doesn’t make them bad laws, or meaningless. It’s GOOD that nations are criticized for those violations. Ideally, it reduces the amount of such violations. Ideally, Israel will try not to totally piss off the rest of the world by brutally killing too many civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1004 "2023-11-03T01:57:00Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > a Hamas operations center (at the very least) or HQ at the same time …you are making a very specific claim here. Pick one or the other. Then either support it with cites or withdraw it. > [@Dorjan](#): > > Hamas as a matter of policy embeds itself within the civilian populace of Gaza, using them as human shields. Describe to me what this means. By “embeding” do you mean living in a home, getting food from the markets, that kind of thing? Are you talking about a Hamas terrorist, or a spokesperson for the Ministry of Health? A journalist that works for a Hamas affiliated media outlet? Or do you mean something else, and can you describe that to us? Because “embeds itself within the civilian populace of Gaza, using them as human shields” is a _talking point_. It isn’t useful in a discussion about what is and isn’t a valid target in war because you could be literally describing _anything_. So I’m not going to debate talking points with you. If you want to talk about specific actions they have taken in the last three weeks that you consider fit in here, we can talk about that. > [@Dorjan](#): > > Do you have something better? Israel needs to comply with international law. Thats my position. The strategy to take down Hamas must also not disproportionately and collectively punish all of the people that are living in Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > The whole situation is an atrocity, and the responsibility lays squarely with Hamas. The responsibility for the atrocities done by the occupying power (as still recognized by the ICRC and almost every other human rights agency ) lie with the occupying power. Hamas are _also_ responsible for atrocities. Both things can be true. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1005 "2023-11-03T01:59:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The responsibility for the atrocities done by the occupying power (as still recognized by the ICRC and almost every other human rights agency ) lie with the occupying power. Hamas are _also_ responsible for atrocities. Both things can be true. This. Hamas is a brutal and evil organization. That doesn’t excuse Israel if it kills a disproportionate number of civilians in its attempt to wipe out Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1006 "2023-11-03T02:00:09Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > If the latter, exactly how do you propose that they do that? So far the answer has been either a rehash of what Israel is already currently doing presented as something new and novel, “the political process”, or wishful thinking. Do you have something better? There have been a bunch of people in this thread (@Banquet_Bear, @Walken_After_Midnight, @Broomstick) who have asserted that Israel does not care about collateral damage. The only evidence provided for this claim is the large number of Palestinian casualties, which is, let me say emphatically, an unquestionably terrible thing. But the reason for the large number of dead Palestinian civilians is not due to a lack of effort on Israel’s part. It is due to Hamas’ efforts, as described by @Dorjan and many others. And no one has presented any alternative means to address the situation, yet many have seen fit to condemn Israel as callous to war crimes or as downright genocidal. It absolutely boggles my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1007 "2023-11-03T02:09:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > who have asserted that Israel does not care about collateral damage. …what does “caring about collateral damage” mean to you? Can you walk us through the decision matrix that ultimately lead to the Jabalia refugee camp? How did the IDF show us that they cared about collateral damage here? Please be specific. What actions did they take? What warnings did they give and were those warning sufficient? And why did they bomb it again the next day, then the day after that? > [@Babale](#): > > It is due to Hamas’ efforts, You don’t get to blame your alleged war crimes against a civilian population on a terrorist group. That isn’t how it works in international law. > [@Babale](#): > > And no one has presented any alternative means to address the situation, We don’t _have to_. That isn’t our obligation. That isn’t our job. That isn’t even the purpose of this thread. I’m watching entire generations of families getting eliminated. I’m allowed to speak up about that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1008 "2023-11-03T02:10:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because “embeds itself within the civilian populace of Gaza, using them as human shields” is a _talking point_ It’s a _fucking reality_, man. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1009 "2023-11-03T02:13:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s a _fucking reality_, man. …in context, it’s an excuse to justify alleged war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1010 "2023-11-03T02:23:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can you walk us through the decision matrix that ultimately lead to the Jabalia refugee camp? How did the IDF show us that they cared about collateral damage here? Please be specific. There isn’t a radioactive crater where the camp used to be. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That isn’t how it works in international law. International law doesn’t work. It’s antiquated. It’s derived from a concept of war as being hundreds of thousands of infantrymen forming lines and plinking away at each other in a field somewhere far away from where anyone lives, where battles never take place in population centers and the population _certainly_ isn’t involved in partisanship or providing shelter or cover for the fighters, and where no soldier would ever dream of engaging in perfidy or hiding amongst the population. Modern war doesn’t look like that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1011 "2023-11-03T02:26:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There isn’t a radioactive crater where the camp used to be. …if this is the threshold, then you’ve made it explicitly clear that no, Israel does _not_ care about collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1012 "2023-11-03T02:29:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …in context, it’s an excuse to justify alleged war crimes Nope, it’s a reality. You are welcome to ignore it - that’s a privilege that comes from living in a place that doesn’t have to deal with a hostile terrorist regime on your border. But if you **do** choose to ignore that reality, do not be surprised when people who have to live with it ignore your advice or your condemnations. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1013 "2023-11-03T02:29:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > International law doesn’t work. It’s antiquated. It’s derived from a concept of war as being hundreds of thousands of infantrymen forming lines and plinking away at each other in a field somewhere far away from where anyone lives. Modern war doesn’t look like that. …oh boy. I’m not going to debate that here. Feel free to open up a Great Debate. But suffice to say, I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1014 "2023-11-03T02:33:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if this is the threshold, then you’ve made it explicitly clear that no, Israel does _not_ care about collateral damage. Israel is a nuclear power. If they didn’t care about collateral damage they could have exterminated the entire population of Gaza by this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=47)