# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1015 "2023-11-03T02:34:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what does “caring about collateral damage” mean to you? It means only targeting hostile combatants, not civilians; and it means avoiding collateral damage when possible. It does _not_ mean never hitting a civilian; that’s an impossible standard, especially when your opponent fights the way Hamas does. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can you walk us through the decision matrix that ultimately lead to the Jabalia refugee camp? Since I’m not an IDF General, I cannot _walk you through the decision matrix_, no. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We don’t _have to_. You don’t have to present an alternative, you’re right. You’re welcome to continue insisting that Israel is a genociding force until the cows come home. Like I said earlier, though, if your evidence for this is the fact that Israel didn’t do something impossible, I won’t really take that very seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1016 "2023-11-03T02:35:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Nope, it’s a reality. …then answer my questions. Were the children that died at Jabalia “human shields”? Are we extending the definition of human shield to include people just going about their day? Because that make everyone, everywhere, any time on the Gaza strip a legitimate target. Which is fine if you are the one that’s doing the targeting. It gives you cover in _all_ instances. But it also renders the term “human shield” rather useless. Just admit the IDF consider _everyone_ in the strip a legitimate target. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1017 "2023-11-03T02:36:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Were the children that died at Jabalia “human shields”? Ask Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1018 "2023-11-03T02:36:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they didn’t care about collateral damage they could have exterminated the entire population of Gaza by this point. …as I said, thanks for explaining the threshold. I stand by what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1019 "2023-11-03T03:11:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Were the children that died at Jabalia “human shields”? Are we extending the definition of human shield to include people just going about their day? I think you are very, very confused. A human shield is not a valid target. The kids who died at Jabalia or otherwise are not valid targets. They also were not targeted. The valid targets were Hamas combatants, like the high ranking commanders killed in the strike as well as the base of operations _inside_ the refugee camp that they were operating from (and _isn’t it incredibly fucked up that Hamas would put a base of operations in a densely populated part of Gaza_). > [@](#): > > Because that make everyone, everywhere, any time on the Gaza strip a legitimate target. Which is fine if you are the one that’s doing the targeting. It gives you cover in _all_ instances. It does absolutely nothing of the sort and I have no idea how you think it does. The only legitimate targets are Hamas combatants, equipment critical to combat operations, etc. Hamas using people as human shields does not make those people valid targets. If Israel started targeting civilians who lived on top of a Hamas hideout, that would be straight up murder. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But it also renders the term “human shield” rather useless. Just admit the IDF consider _everyone_ in the strip a legitimate target. The IDF absolutely does not consider everyone in the strip a legitimate target. That’s absolutely ridiculous. The IDF considers Hamas militants in the Gaza strip to be legitimate targets. Often they hide out in places where the only way to attack them is to risk hitting civilians in the area; hiding out among civilians in this way is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1020 "2023-11-03T03:18:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > hiding out among civilians in this way is a war crime. …by “hiding out” do you mean living in a home, going to the market, visiting a refugee camp, that sort of thing? You define _this_ as a war crime? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1021 "2023-11-03T03:20:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …by “hiding out” do you mean living in a home, going to the market, visiting a refugee camp, that sort of thing? > > You define _this_ as a war crime? Gee, it’s almost as if the laws of war were a relic of a bygone era or something. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1022 "2023-11-03T03:21:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Gee, it’s almost as if the laws of war were a relic of a bygone era or something. …gee, its almost as if you are providing a text book case for why the laws of war _need to exist._ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1023 "2023-11-03T03:22:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > gee, its almost as if you are providing a text book case for why the laws of war _need to exist._ Perhaps, but not in a form where self-defense against an existential threat is “illegal”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1024 "2023-11-03T03:28:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > visiting a refugee camp I’m very confused by who you are talking about in your posts. First you seemed to be talking about human shields as targets. Not you are talking about someone “visiting” a refugee camp. Are you saying that if a Hamas commander was there, he might have been just “visiting”? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1025 "2023-11-03T03:28:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Perhaps, but not in a form where self-defense against an existential threat is “illegal”. … Palestinians are _also_ facing an existential threat to their existence. You can’t pick-and-choose who should be required to comply with international law here. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1026 "2023-11-03T03:29:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … Palestinians are _also_ facing an existential threat to their existence. Is that why they flew gliders across the border and murdered 1400 people? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You can’t pick-and-choose who should be required to comply with international law here. Sure I can. The needs of the defender trump those of the aggressor. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1027 "2023-11-03T03:31:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Is that why they flew gliders across the border and murdered 1400 people? …do you think this all started on October the 7th? And no, I’m not excusing what Hamas did on that day. I CONDEMN IT with every bone in my body. But this all didn’t _start_ there. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1028 "2023-11-03T03:31:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you think this all started on October the 7th? The current war certainly did. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I CONDEMN IT with every bone in my body. Then you understand that _Hamas delenda est._ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1029 "2023-11-03T03:34:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Sure I can. …I mean, you can do whatever you like. But continuing this discussion with you would be unhelpful. You’ve made your feelings on this matter abundantly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1030 "2023-11-03T03:46:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The kids who died at Jabalia or otherwise are not valid targets. …but they were human shields in your eyes, correct? Which means they are acceptable collateral damage in certain circumstances. Do you think they were acceptable here? > [@Babale](#): > > The valid targets were Hamas combatants, like the high ranking commanders killed in the strike as well as the base of operations _inside_ the refugee camp that they were operating from (and _isn’t it incredibly fucked up that Hamas would put a base of operations in a densely populated part of Gaza_). > [@Israeli Spokesperson](#): > > An Israeli military statement said that the attacks on Jabalia had killed Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari. The military believes Biari played a pivotal role in the planning and execution of the Hamas attack on southern Israel on October 7. > > “There was a very senior Hamas commander in that area,” Israeli army spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel Richard Hecht told CNN. > **[Israel’s deadly attack on the Jabalia refugee camp: What we know so far](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/1/israels-deadly-attack-on-the-jabalia-refugee-camp-what-we-know-so-far)** > > Israeli air raids on the refugee camp have killed dozens and injured hundreds, drawing condemnation from Arab nations. If it were a “base of operations” one would expect the spokesperson to be a tad more specific than just “someone was in the area.” But maybe my cite is out of date. It’s a fast moving conflict, after all. Please feel free to provide more up-to-date, accurate information to support your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1031 "2023-11-03T03:59:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but they were human shields in your eyes, correct? Which means they are acceptable collateral damage in certain circumstances. This is a really weird perspective to me. To say that someone is being used as a human shield is about the behavior of Hamas, positioning themselves deliberately among civilians in the hope that this will deter an attack. It does not _label_ those civilians as “acceptable collateral damage” from Israel’s perspective, any more than any other innocent person. It speaks to the probability that they will be harmed if Hamas are targeted, and Hamas is entirely responsible for deliberately increasing that probability. The IDF must make then make the difficult decision whether to proceed with an attack _given_ that increased probability. The horror of October 7th has changed the calculus dramatically to a (military) consensus that there is no alternative but to attack and destroy Hamas _despite_ their despicable tactics that maximize the civilian casualties from doing so. It is simply worthless to just say “the Palestinians don’t deserve this” and “this number of civilian casualties is unacceptable” unless you can make a convincing case that there is some other more effective way to remove the Hamas regime that will in the long run result in both safety for Israel and _less_ harm to the Palestinian people. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1032 "2023-11-03T04:16:30Z")
It seems the burden to show that the desired path will result in peace and safety should be on those advocating for killing a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1033 "2023-11-03T04:17:56Z")
The objective that is advocated is not “killing a lot of people”, it is removing Hamas from power. Are you advocating that they should remain in power? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1034 "2023-11-03T04:21:14Z")
I am advocating for removing them from power without bombing a refugee camp to kill one Hamas bigwig. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=48)