# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1115 "2023-11-03T21:05:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@TroutMan](#): > > > > Obviously there are middle grounds between bombing schools and letting Hamas repeat October 7 > > That’s the question. Is it obvious? Is it true? I think this is the crux of the issue. I think important powers in Israel don’t believe that is true. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1116 "2023-11-03T21:13:18Z")
Of course there are other options. There can be debates about the pros and cons of those options. Israel might prefer this option for a variety of reasons. That doesn’t mean they truly do not have any other option. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1117 "2023-11-03T21:44:57Z")
There are other options. _Do_ they prevent a massacre from happening again? I gotta say, I’m not sure this option prevents that. But i think you are being a bit blase in assuming that of course Israel can prevent future attacks with a less brutal response. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1118 "2023-11-03T21:55:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Boots on the ground would kill less people than a bunker buster every time, I’d wager. I have no idea whether that’s true. I can imagine multiple scenarios in which it wouldn’t be, but I’m not a military strategist, let alone one with detailed information about “the ground” in Palestine. Are you? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Or otherwise, just … don’t kill the civilians. And let Hamas keep doing that instead? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1119 "2023-11-03T22:10:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I gotta say, I’m not sure this option prevents that. But i think you are being a bit blase in assuming that of course Israel can prevent future attacks with a less brutal response. That’s fair. I don’t think any option can be said today to be guaranteed to prevent this in the future, especially if you are talking about an attack from a Hamas-like organization. As has been noted, the current path could easily create the next generation of terrorists, even if successful in wiping out the current iteration of Hamas. But the specific comment that started this was that the only option was to let Hamas “work to repeat the events of Oct 7 in peace.” There are many other options besides that, and we can debate the likely effectiveness of those options. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1120 "2023-11-03T22:23:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Boots on the ground would kill less people than a bunker buster every time, I’d wager. > > I have no idea whether that’s true. I can imagine multiple scenarios in which it wouldn’t be, but I’m not a military strategist, let alone one with detailed information about “the ground” in Palestine. Boots _are_ on the ground, precisely because it is impossible to eliminate Hamas through bombing alone, unless you resort to carpet bombing Gaza rather than using precision strikes against Hamas (which I’m sure we can all agree would be a horrific way to proceed). But while Israeli infantry are skilled and well-equipped, much of their efficacy comes from air and artillery support, as with any combined arms force. Blowing up Hamas positions is part of getting boots on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1121 "2023-11-03T22:25:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Boots _are_ on the ground Yes, of course. I meant for getting at a specific bunker. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1122 "2023-11-03T22:28:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Is your understanding of the rules of war that a terrorist militant may be targeted during business hours when they are actively murdering civilians, but on evenings and weekends he must be allowed to pursue a normal social life free from molestation? …you can conduct a targeted assassination any time you like. But you don’t get to call the hundreds of injured and dead “human shields.” They are what the IDF consider acceptable casualties. They considered the target important enough to take out that the cost in civilian lives was acceptable. Let’s not sugar-coat this. > [@Riemann](#): > > Bin Laden missed a trick here, he should have retired and moved to Florida. How many American children would you consider an acceptable amount to die if Bin Laden was out and about in a Florida mall? > [@Riemann](#): > > But what I find utterly useless is this kind of thing, stating (with an air of moral superiority) ideals that literally everyone other than psychopaths agrees with while explicitly refusing to engage with the real and extremely difficult problem. Were you under the impression that I, Banquet Bear, am capable of coming up with a solution to the Israel/Palestinian crisis? I really hate to disappoint you. But more impressive people than me have tried to tackle this and none of them have been successful. And not everyone agrees with that sentiment. I don’t think everyone in this very thread would agree. The people in the video I shared earlier certainly don’t. Because if they did, they would agree that lifting the siege is something that should be done _now_. I focus on what I _can_ do. And what I can do here is elevate the voices and the plight of innocent Palestinians who after decades of [Apartheid](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/), are now being driven from their [lands](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/nov/01/palestinians-forced-out-of-west-bank-villages-by-settler-violence-video#:~:text=After%20weeks%20of%20intense%20violence,a%20collective%20decision%20to%20leave.), having their children bombed and killed at unacceptable rates. I again reiterate that the events of October 7th were a disgusting act of terror, Hamas an evil organization that needs to be taken out. But it isn’t my job to explain to Israel how to do that without violating international law. It’s enough for me to simply state Israel should stop violating international law. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1123 "2023-11-03T22:35:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There have been a bunch of people in this thread (@Banquet_Bear, @Walken_After_Midnight, @Broomstick) who have asserted that Israel does not care about collateral damage. The only evidence provided for this claim is the large number of Palestinian casualties, which is, let me say emphatically, an unquestionably terrible thing. > > But the reason for the large number of dead Palestinian civilians is not due to a lack of effort on Israel’s part. It is due to Hamas’ efforts, as described by @Dorjan and many others. And no one has presented any alternative means to address the situation, yet many have seen fit to condemn Israel as callous to war crimes or as downright genocidal. > > It absolutely boggles my mind. Let me try a little unboggling. For the past 78 years my country has come under a LOT of ethical questioning for dropping two atomic bombs on Japan. A LOT of words, print, and pixels have been expended on trying to “settle” the question of whether it was justifiable or beyond the pale. I am resigned that the question will never be answered to everyone’s satisfaction. Unquestionably, it was known beforehand that thousands of people, including civilians, including children, would die if those bombs were dropped. The consequences were absolutely horrific. In isolation it would be considered an atrocity and possibly a crime against humanity. So the only question is: can you provide any argument to justify this act? And the US has put forth the argument that the alternative plan, involving napalming every settlement over an arbitrary population limit and physically invading the Japanese islands would have results in multiple orders of magnitude more deaths than dropping Fat Man and Little Boy. Remarkably enough, there is some evidence that the proposed land invasion would have resulted in more death. That doesn’t convince everyone (and never will convince everyone) but it is arguable that as horrific as those bombings were they might be justifiable. Or, as I put it, they were the least bad thing. But what the US did not and has not done is just claim that the Japanese military were embedded among civilians (true to some degree) and there was no alternative. There was an alternative and there has been some effort to prove (maybe successful or maybe not) that the alternative would have been even worse. Now, let get back to the present day. Israel claims they have no choice and there’s no alternative. If they want to win over people outside Israel what they need to do is explain **the alternatives would be even worse**. Because that’s what will provide justification for the current bombing of Gaza and the nearly 10,000 deaths so far, about half of them children. And you’re still not going to win over everyone. To the outside it looks like Netanyahu’s government went straight to bombing the shit out of Gaza. This makes a lot of people angry and uncomfortable. Maybe the IDF should explain how a ground offensive _without_ the prior bombing campaign would be worse. Or that urban combat, house-to-house, seeking Hamas in such a manner would be even worse - maybe it would take longer, maybe it would be likely to result in more civilian deaths, whatever. Because the sort of bombing campaign currently being conducted, along with the “complete siege” cutting off all food, water, and fuel, is a horrific thing and can **only** be justified if all viable alternatives are worse. Instead, the Israelis just keep saying, essentially, “trust us”. That’s not going to win over people outside of Israel. _It’s not the job of other people to justify this bombing campaign it is the job of ISRAEL to justify it._ ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1124 "2023-11-03T22:39:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I again reiterate that the events of October 7th were a disgusting act of terror, Hamas an evil organization that needs to be taken out. But it isn’t my job to explain to Israel how to do that without violating international law. What if that isn’t possible? At least, by your definition of what international law is. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1125 "2023-11-03T22:41:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > At least, by your definition of what international law is. …it isn’t _my_ definition. I’ve cited the International Red Cross and the Geneva Conventions. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What if that isn’t possible? Then the gloves come off. _Everywhere_. You legitimize the October 7th attacks. 9/11. If you decide the rules don’t apply to you…then the rules don’t apply to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1126 "2023-11-03T22:46:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Can you walk us through the decision matrix that ultimately lead to the Jabalia refugee camp? How did the IDF show us that they cared about collateral damage here? Please be specific. > > There isn’t a radioactive crater where the camp used to be. Israel nuking Gaza would be idiotic because the entire country of Israel is downwind. They’d be irradiating their own people as well as Hamas and the Gaza Palestinians. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Smapti](#): > > > > There isn’t a radioactive crater where the camp used to be. > > …if this is the threshold, then you’ve made it explicitly clear that no, Israel does _not_ care about collateral damage. Well, arguably that would be a case for Israelis caring about collateral damage among Israelis… > [@Smapti](#): > > International law doesn’t work. It’s antiquated. It’s derived from a concept of war as being hundreds of thousands of infantrymen forming lines and plinking away at each other in a field somewhere far away from where anyone lives, where battles never take place in population centers and the population _certainly_ isn’t involved in partisanship or providing shelter or cover for the fighters, and where no soldier would ever dream of engaging in perfidy or hiding amongst the population. Modern war doesn’t look like that. I doubt war even looked like that in the past, either. That was the whole point of trying to come up with some rules to limit the damage, or at least try to. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > …what does “caring about collateral damage” mean to you? > > It means only targeting hostile combatants, not civilians; and it means avoiding collateral damage when possible. It does _not_ mean never hitting a civilian; that’s an impossible standard, especially when your opponent fights the way Hamas does. ^ @Babale makes a very valid point here - if you’re going to fight a war it is inevitable some innocent bystanders are going to get killed. So “no civilians killed whatsoever” is not a valid standard. Can we all agree on that? > [@Babale](#): > > You don’t have to present an alternative, you’re right. Israel does not _have to_ present alternatives, but if they don’t they will be judged by the other nations of the world. When one’s nation is getting dumped on it’s very uncomfortable and it is easy to become defensive. It may feel unfair. It may even be unfair. I want to underline that I am NOT blaming anyone in this thread for decisions made in this war. None of us are in control here, and some people here have a very personal stake in this conflict Let’s choose our words carefully and also listen carefully to what other people are actually saying. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1127 "2023-11-03T22:50:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Can we all agree on that? …I agree with that. And for the sake of clarity, I’ve never _suggested_ that the standard should be “no innocent bystanders are going to get killed.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1128 "2023-11-03T23:24:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Israel does not _have to_ present alternatives, but if they don’t they will be judged by the other nations of the world. And that’s exactly what Hamas wants. I could be wrong, but i believe that a primary goal of that raid was to provoke Israel to act so aggressively that it lost friends and allies in the rest of the world. There may be no good options for Israel. But what they are doing now is a bad option. Maybe it’s the least bad. I am hardly an international diplomat. But what Israel is doing now is hurting Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1129 "2023-11-03T23:26:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > … Palestinians are _also_ facing an existential threat to their existence. > > Is that why they flew gliders across the border and murdered 1400 people? I’m going to nitpick this. HAMAS “flew gliders across the border and murdered 1400 people”. NOT generic “Palestinians”. Please do not lump all several million Palestinians in with a terror group that, at most, is around 25,000 people. Doing so is bigoted. > [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > You can’t pick-and-choose who should be required to comply with international law here. > > Sure I can. The needs of the defender trump those of the aggressor. Defending oneself is not a get-out-of-moral-standards-free card. Defending oneself does not excuse atrocity, disproportionate killing, ethnic cleansing, or genocide. Hamas hits all four of those sins, I’m hoping Israel manages to avoid them but as of yet I’m not convinced that what the IDF is currently doing is justified as the least bad alternative. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I simply _don’t_ think its simply worthless to just say “the Palestinians don’t deserve this” and “this number of civilian casualties is unacceptable.” I consider it my duty to say those things. And I’m not going to debate that. I think the laws of war are explicit here. And in Israel’s case, as the occupying power, even more so. They should be protecting the Palestinian people. They aren’t at war with the Palestinian people. They are at war with Hamas. I strongly suspect that there are, in fact, _some_ Israelis who are at war with Palestinians, or would like to be. There are extremists on both sides. > [@Babale](#): > > Jabalia is an urban district of Gaza with a population of over 100,000 people. It is a “refugee camp” because it grew around a refugee camp founded by the UN in 1948. But it is not some tent city where displaced persons are temporarily cared for. It is, for all intents and purposes, an urban district of Gaza. Is this something you were already aware of, or is it news to you? I knew that before I started commenting in this thread. > [@Babale](#): > > The same IDF press release that announced that they killed Ibrahim Biari also claimed to have killed numerous other terrorists belonging to the Central Jablia Battalion of Hamas. They also say that the damage to buildings was mostly caused by the collapse of Hamas tunnels underneath them due to the airstrike. Were you aware of this, or is it new information? I was not aware of building damage from tunnel collapses but that actually make a tremendous amount of sense. > [@Babale](#): > > I know you can find right wing Israelis saying odious things; it’s why I oppose right wing Israelis by being a left wing Israeli. Now, why are you so careful to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians while being so sloppy about conflating right wing Israeli parties with Israel as a whole? ^ This is another point - it is important to distinguish between people with different positions rather than treating them as identical. Not all Israelis are in agreement with the extremists (on either end, but right now perhaps especially the far right). From what I gather, public opinion on a number of issues surrounding events in October are very split. Again, let’s be careful with our words. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1130 "2023-11-03T23:31:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Israel does not _have to_ present alternatives, but if they don’t they will be judged by the other nations of the world. > > And that’s exactly what Hamas wants. I could be wrong, but i believe that a primary goal of that raid was to provoke Israel to act so aggressively that it lost friends and allies in the rest of the world. > > There may be no good options for Israel. But what they are doing now is a bad option. Maybe it’s the least bad. I am hardly an international diplomat. But what Israel is doing now is hurting Israel. No. _It is hurting Jews all over the world as well as Israel._ Because too many people conflate “Jew” and “Israeli”. Another instance of one group being a subset of the other. Hate crimes and death threats against Jews and Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims are soaring in the US right now and the rise in threats is being driven by the Hamas/Israeli war. There has _already_ been at least one fatality from this conflict in the US. Law enforcement is trying to keep up with it all but I do fear that sooner or later another fanatic is going to kill someone. Or a group of someones. This war is like a forest fire in a high wind - embers keep being thrown out to land far away and a threaten to start more fires. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1131 "2023-11-03T23:35:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Where is your evidence that the IDF doesn’t do exactly that? That’s why you and others are asked to provide an alternative. > > In fact, minimizing civilian casualties _is_ a major goal of the IDF, while maximizing civilian casualties is a goal _of Hamas_. U.S. officials have questions: > [@](#): > > U.S. officials have asked the Israeli military to explain its airstrike on a densely populated refugee camp in Gaza this week, after the attack killed dozens of people, according to U.S. and Israeli officials. > > The Biden administration requested Israel detail the thinking and process behind the recent strike on the Jabalia Refugee Camp in Northern Gaza, according to a U.S. official, who like others was granted anonymity to discuss sensitive conversations. > > Administration officials urged Israel to conduct “precision targeting” in order to avoid harming civilians, the official said. > > “The U.S. asked for an explanation of the first [attack] on Jabalia,” said the official, adding that the conversation was in the context of “asking Israel to do more to avoid civilian casualties.” > > … > > A House Democrat familiar with U.S.-Israeli conversations said the administration “has been pushing very hard in private on the Israelis to ease back” — particularly after the bombing of the refugee camp. > **[US asks Israel for ‘explanation’ of strike on Gaza refugee camp](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/03/us-asks-israel-for-explanation-of-some-airstrikes-in-gaza-00125294)** > > Israel’s strike on the Jabalia refugee camp has led to more intense pushback from the Biden administration. Obviously, we’ve seen from another thread that there are some people on this board who will refuse to believe that these conversations happened until the “U.S. official” and the “House Democrat” are named, but I believe Politico to be a reputable news outlet, so I will give them them the benefit of the doubt that the article is not fabricated. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1132 "2023-11-03T23:54:16Z")
Moderating: > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Obviously, we’ve seen from another thread that there are some people on this board who will refuse to believe that these conversations happened until the “U.S. official” and the “House Democrat” are named, First, that’s a cheap shot and inappropriate for this thread. Second, i have specifically asked everyone to drop that topic in this thread. That includes snide sidelong comments. Everyone else: please do not engage with this comment. I am briefly closing the thread so other posters have time to read this note. Eta: after consulting with other mods, this is a formal warning to @Walken_After_Midnight ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1135 "2023-11-04T00:34:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it isn’t _my_ definition. I’ve cited the International Red Cross and the Geneva Conventions. I’ve lost track. Did your cites address the specific situation in which the military use is underneath the civilian buildings? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Then the gloves come off. _Everywhere_. You legitimize the October 7th attacks. 9/11. If you decide the rules don’t apply to you…then the rules don’t apply to anyone You said that Hamas needs to be taken out. So what you’re saying is, if it’s not possible to take Hamas out without going through civilian buildings, Hamas must be legitimized, either by leaving them alone or by saying the October 7 attacks were legitimate? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I agree with that. > > And for the sake of clarity, I’ve never _suggested_ that the standard should be “no innocent bystanders are going to get killed.” OK. So the issue is how to balance the unavoidable fact that some innocent bystanders will be killed in any serious attempt to “take out” Hamas; and the discussion is how to keep that number to a minimum, and possibly what that minimum needs to be. And what I am saying is that none of us are in a position to know, militarily, which actions stand the best chance of reducing that number; and which, though they do take out some innocents, will reduce the number of innocent dead and maimed overall. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > There may be no good options for Israel. But what they are doing now is a bad option. Maybe it’s the least bad. Yeah. I don’t know either. I hope they’re doing their best to do the least bad thing. I hope they remain aware, even while they’re doing it, that it’s still a bad thing. But it may be a necessary thing. And I don’t think any of us are in a position to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1136 "2023-11-04T00:58:49Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Did your cites address the specific situation in which the military use is underneath the civilian buildings? …I’m not going to enter into a debate over the Geneva Conventions. Go read them. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So what you’re saying is, What I’m saying is _what I said_. If you think that its okay for one side to ignore the rules of law, it should be okay for _all_ sides to ignore those rules. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So the issue is how to balance the unavoidable fact that some innocent bystanders will be killed in any serious attempt to “take out” Hamas; and the discussion is how to keep that number to a minimum, and possibly what that minimum needs to be. I’m not interested in a debate about “balance.” I was quiet for the first three weeks of this war. And Israel has shown no sign of letting up the siege. Every international humanitarian organization is calling for an end to the siege. Thats my starting point. If you think that preventing millions of innocent Palestinians from readily accessing food, water, electricity, communications is a “balanced” approach to war then I’m going to disagree with you. And there isn’t anything more that needs to be said. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And what I am saying is that none of us are in a position to know, militarily, which actions stand the best chance of reducing that number; and which, though they do take out some innocents, will reduce the number of innocent dead and maimed overall. The military should be subject to checks and balances on how they choose to conduct a war. We don’t just let the military “do their thing.” We have conventions, protocols, treaties, laws, to prevent the military deciding for themselves the best way to “take out a target.” You can’t expect me to believe that the IDF are doing everything they can to prevent civilian casualties when they have killed twice as many children in three weeks than the Russians have in the entirety of the Ukraine war. It was 3700 dead last I checked. Next time I check it will be over 4000. You tell me what _your_ threshold is. More journalists have died in this conflict than in any other conflict since Reporters Without Borders started taking records in 1992. 72 UN aid staff have died. I’m not interested in debating hypotheticals. Let’s talk whats actually happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=53)