# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1137 "2023-11-04T01:30:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You can’t expect me to believe that the IDF are doing everything they can to prevent civilian casualties when they have killed twice as many children in three weeks than the Russians have in the entirety of the Ukraine war Unless the Ukrainian Army keeps its missiles under schools, that is a disgusting and disingenuous comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1138 "2023-11-04T01:40:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Unless the Ukrainian Army keeps its missiles under schools, that is a disgusting and disingenuous comparison. …If the IDF had evidence that 3700 children were killed because they were “in schools that had missiles under them” they would be yelling it out from the rooftops. But the children are dying all over. In the streets, in their homes, in schools. And it isn’t my job to make the case that in every instance the target was a valid one. “But Hamas” isn’t a valid defence. “But missiles” isn’t a valid defence. Not when, time after time, it’s presented with _zero evidence_. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1139 "2023-11-04T01:58:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Unless the Ukrainian Army keeps its missiles under schools, that is a disgusting and disingenuous comparison. Personally, I feel the word “disgusting” appears too frequently in your posts, and so far I would not agree that there has been a single instance where its use has been appropriate. > [@Babale](#): > > So you’re not going to address my actual point? I recognise the point you are making that there are times when it may be advisable to be more specific with the use of language to differentiate between Israeli government/Likud and coalition partners vs Israeli, as with Hamas vs Palestinian. I do find the instance you cited as an example to be an odd choice. I don’t think I would have even registered or batted an eyelid if you had written: “…just as I could find a similar quote from a far-right Palestinian official…” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1140 "2023-11-04T02:50:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …If the IDF had evidence that 3700 children were killed because they were “in schools that had missiles under them” they would be yelling it out from the rooftops. I was talking about the Jabalia strikes and the schools that were damage due to the IDF’s attack on Hamas forces there. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But the children are dying all over. In the streets, in their homes, in schools. Right, because Hamas has set up its operation throughout the most densely populated areas of the Gaza strip specifically to make it impossible to strike Hamas without killing civilians. Under the streets, under their homes, under their schools. The sort of behavior that a civilized force like the Ukranian Armed Forces does not engage in for fear of drawing Russian fire; and if the Ukrainians _do_ decide that the defense of a town requires the use of a school or a hospital as a fortified position, they _evacuate it of civilians first_. That’s why I consider the comparison disgusting. The Ukranian army is not perfect. It has the Azov brigade, for one. But overall, the Ukranian army places itself in harms way to protect civilians, while Hamas places civilians in harms way to protect itself. Comparing the two is, as I said, gross. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Personally, I feel the word “disgusting” appears too frequently in your posts, and so far I would not agree that there has been a single instance where its use has been appropriate. Personally, I feel that Hamas’s behavior has been constantly underplayed and compared to groups that are nothing like it, like the Ukranian government or the IDF, and I’m gonna call that out. Sorry if you don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1141 "2023-11-04T03:04:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I was talking about the Jabalia strikes and the schools that were damage due to the IDF’s attack on Hamas forces there. …and I was clearly talking about the 3700 Palestinian children that have been killed. > [@Babale](#): > > Right, because Hamas has set up its operation throughout the most densely populated areas of the Gaza strip specifically to make it impossible to strike Hamas without killing civilians. Have you seen this video? > Its from the IDF. It isn’t a documentary. Its _propaganda_. This isn’t the _standard_ we should be judging the conflict on. If you want to claim that it is impossible to wage this war without killing thousands of children I’ll ask you for evidence. I don’t believe the IDF. I don’t believe the propaganda. I don’t believe 3700 children _had_ to die. The sheer scope of death in this conflict _demands_ transparency. Without it: I’ll make my own judgements based on the evidence that we _do_ have. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1142 "2023-11-04T03:04:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Palestinians are increasingly desperate for the most basic supplies. > > The average Gaza resident is now surviving on two pieces of bread per day, much of it made from stockpiled U.N. flour, said Thomas White, Gaza director for the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees. Demands for drinking water are also growing. > > “People are beyond looking for bread,” he told U.N. diplomats in a video briefing from Gaza. “It’s looking for water.” > > After talks with Netanyahu, Blinken said a temporary halt was needed to boost aid deliveries and help win the release of the hostages Hamas took during its brutal incursion nearly a month ago. > > But Netanyahu said he told Blinken that Israel was “going with full steam ahead,” unless hostages are released. > > U.S. officials initially said they were not seeking a cease-fire, but short pauses in specific areas to allow aid deliveries or other humanitarian activity, after which Israeli operations would resume. Netanyahu has not publicly addressed the idea and has instead repeatedly ruled out a cease-fire. > **[Israel resists US pressure to pause the war to allow more aid to Gaza, wants...](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-3-2023-94d5d0b58bc10a14be6ac191060e47e1)** > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pushed back against growing pressure for a humanitarian pause in the nearly month-old war to protect civilians and allow more aid into Gaza. So what is the logic of the Israeli government here? People say that the reason that Israel is denying food, water, supplies etc to the Gaza Strip is so they don’t get into the hands of Hamas, who, because they are evil and are armed, will take them from the civilians. People say that Hamas doesn’t care about the lives or welfare of Palestinian civilians, which would mean they would not be moved or pressured by the suffering of Palestinian civilians at the hands of the Israeli blockade. It’s widely reported that the Israeli military operation to secure Gaza City, which is now encircled by the Israel Defense Forces, will take many months, and, due to the Israeli government’s civilian evacuation order, should theoretically no longer contain Palestinian civilians. Is it possible for anyone to make an argument that the Israeli government cares at all about the lives or welfare of Palestinian civilians? Are they prepared to allow two million Palestinian civilians starve to death in order to starve Hamas fighters? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1143 "2023-11-04T03:14:56Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Is it possible for anyone to make an argument that the Israeli government cares at all about the lives or welfare of Palestinian civilians? Are they prepared to allow two million Palestinian civilians starve to death in order to starve Hamas fighters? You can say the same thing about Hamas. They have the food and fuel to continue fighting. And since they’re the ones who started this it’s clear the people they represent have no value. Clearly they’re not fighting on behalf of Gaza. It’s just a place to dig tunnels under, ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1144 "2023-11-04T03:17:45Z")
I thought Israel were the good guys who don’t commit war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1145 "2023-11-04T03:23:48Z")
In September, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu appeared at the United Nations with a map titled “The New Middle East”. > Where is Palestine on the map I hear you ask? Where is the West Bank? Where is the Gaza Strip? They have been eradicated from the map and incorporated into a Greater Israel. Today, the official Twitter account in Arabic for the State of Israel reposted the map, so Arabs could be sure to get the message (although they subsequently deleted it). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1146 "2023-11-04T03:25:08Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I thought Israel were the good guys who don’t commit war crimes? Israel was attacked by a terrorist government hiding behind the people they rule. They did this knowing it was going to be a shitshow. The only explanation is that they intended this outcome in order to gather support for a larger war. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1147 "2023-11-04T03:28:09Z")
Okay, so your argument is that Israel is free to commit war crimes now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1148 "2023-11-04T03:31:02Z")
Okay, so your argument is that Hamas is free to commit war crimes now. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1149 "2023-11-04T03:43:26Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > The IRA and the FLN in Algeria often used bombings that caused civilian casualties, These were terrorist groups, using terrorist methods, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1150 "2023-11-04T03:43:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its from the IDF. > > It isn’t a documentary. Its _propaganda_. You’re joking, right? You posted a _tweet_. Yes, that’s propaganda. What does that prove? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This isn’t the _standard_ we should be judging the conflict on. I agree, we shouldn’t judge the conflict based on _tweets_ from the IDF’s _public relations team_, that would be ridiculous. Hold up, you don’t think the IDF is going to release sensitive intelligence on _Twitter_, err, _X_, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1151 "2023-11-04T03:44:46Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I do find the instance you cited as an example to be an odd choice. I don’t think I would have even registered or batted an eyelid if you had written: “…just as I could find a similar quote from a far-right Palestinian official…” My problem isn’t with “Far-Right Israeli”, it’s with “The ideology of Israel as a whole”. If someone started going off about the ideology of Palestine/Palestinians as a whole, I’m sure you’d call them out on it, and rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1152 "2023-11-04T03:50:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What does that prove? …you haven’t said anything here _indistinguishable_ from that tweet. The same assertions. The same talking points. I’m not going to debate talking points with you. > [@Babale](#): > > Hold up, you don’t think the IDF is going to release sensitive intelligence on _Twitter_, err, _X_, do you? I think when you are responsible for the deaths of thousands of children, then yes, I expect _transparency_ and _accountability_. Its “super secret sensitive intelligence” _isn’t good enough_. “Just trust me bro” isn’t a defence. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1153 "2023-11-04T04:52:02Z")
War is full of tragedies and I agree that harm to innocents is one of those tragedies. What do you recommend for a nation to do at war when those the nation is fighting against are using a deliberate strategy of exploiting a difference in morality? If Israel was fighting according to Hamas’s set of principles there would be no Hamas to fight. In essence, Israel is acting very restrained according to their adversaries set of principles. This hypocrisy is obviously and sickeningly effective as we can see in the support for Hamas in the Western progressive left. Now what I haven’t heard from any of the critics is what Israel ought to do in order to fight Hamas. How do you actually engage and defeat said enemy? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1154 "2023-11-04T04:55:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you haven’t said anything here _indistinguishable_ from that tweet. The same assertions. The same talking points. I’m not going to debate talking points with you And I’m not going to reveal classified intelligence to you (not that I’m privy to such in the first place). > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think when you are responsible for the deaths of thousands of children, then yes, I expect _transparency_ and _accountability_. Its “super secret sensitive intelligence” _isn’t good enough_. Literally no nation at war in history has ever acted in this way, and I highly doubt one ever will. It would be nice, but it just isn’t reality. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1155 "2023-11-04T05:20:02Z")
Yes, the Israeli military must have been very restrained between 2008 and September 2023 when they killed four to five and a half thousand Palestinian civilians (when only 177 Israeli civilians were killed over the same time period) and were [accused by various bodies of war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes). You clearly haven’t been reading the thread if what you “haven’t heard from any of the critics is what Israel ought to do in order to fight Hamas”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1156 "2023-11-04T05:31:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > think when you are responsible for the deaths of thousands of children, then yes, I expect _transparency_ and _accountability_. Yes, it’d be awfully nice if Hamas were transparent and accountable for the blood on their hands. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Yes, the Israeli military must have been very restrained between 2008 and September 2023 when they killed four to five and a half thousand Palestinian civilians (when only 177 Israeli civilians were killed over the same time period) and were [accused by various bodies of war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes) I must’ve missed the part of the Geneva Conventions that says you’re only allowed one casualty for every one that the other guy inflicts on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=54)