# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1197 "2023-11-04T20:15:20Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Firstly, “The New Middle East” map, with no Palestinian West Bank or Gaza Strip, which are instead shown as being part of Israel. No one has denied that Netanyahu uses jingoism to appeal to the worst portions of his base, and maps that don’t recognize Palestine are part of that. Genocidal is a big stretch, though. Not recognizing Palestinian sovereignty is a far cry from genocide. Does your take on the map mean you also consider this image to be genocidal? [![](https://www.shutterstock.com/shutterstock/photos/2313247935/display_1500/stock-vector-palestine-will-be-free-you-will-never-walk-alone-save-gaza-save-palestine-vector-background-2313247935.jpg) ](https://www.shutterstock.com/shutterstock/photos/2313247935/display_1500/stock-vector-palestine-will-be-free-you-will-never-walk-alone-save-gaza-save-palestine-vector-background-2313247935.jpg) How about “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea”? Is that a call for genocide? > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Secondly, Netanyahu’s invocation of the nation of Amalek. In modern Judaism, any who want to destroy the Jewish people are portrayed as Amalek, most notably the Nazis. That’s the allusion Netanyahu is making. > [@](#): > > “Remember both of you what Amalek did to us. The Nazis callously slaughtered us, undisturbed by feelings of guilt. I observed them as I stood among them when many thousands of men, women, children, and infants were sent to their deaths. How guilty [the Germans] ate their morning’s bread and butter, how they mocked our martyrs. I saw them on their return from the killing rounds, drenched in the blood of our loved ones. Remember this and do not forget it all the days of your lives. Pass it on as a holy testament to the generations to come.” Elhanan Elkes[1](https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/8/9/196#fn001-religions-08-00196) When Jews reference Amalek in the modern day, this is the implication; that the group under discussion (Hamas, the Nazis, etc) seek to destroy the Jewish people, hence they are Amalek. Other examples include Haman (Purim story), Popes and kings who led crusades and Inquisitions, etc. Here are a couple links to help demonstarate this: > **[Amalek in Every Generation](https://www.hevreh.org/post/amalek-in-every-generation)** > > Parashat Vayikra 5776 Father Charles Coughlin was a Roman Catholic priest, whose impact was felt across the 1930’s, gaining national attention through his syndicated radio show. Over his nine years on the air, he gained an audience of approximately... [https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article\_cdo/aid/150871/jewish/Amalek-The-Perpetual-Enemy-of-the-Jewish-People.htm](https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/150871/jewish/Amalek-The-Perpetual-Enemy-of-the-Jewish-People.htm) > [@](#): > > Though the name Amalek refers to a nation that actually existed, it also describes a character trait within ourselves. Just as Amalek stood in direct opposition to the Jewish peo­ple, the trait symbolized by Amalek defies the very founda­tions of our divine service. So no, I don’t think that Netanyahu is calling for a genocide of the Palestinian people. I do think he’s a jingoist that belongs in jail, and that he aligns himself with people who either _have_ called for genocide or at the least definitely would if they thought they could get away with it, like Ben Gvir, who also belongs in jail. I hope that helps alleviate your confusion. > [@Riemann](#): > > I have detected zero sympathy for Netanyahu or the Israeli right in this thread, Yes, let me emphasize that I have zero empathy for known criminal Benyamin Netanyahu, I eagerly look forward to the day he is unceremoniously tossed from office and have my hopes up that he will land in prison. > [@Riemann](#): > > so nobody here is going to “explain” what Netanyahu meant Just like when Walken claimed that Netanyahu told Gazans to leave Gaza before he flattens the entire place in 24 hours, I am once again forced to defend one of the most odious leaders Israel has ever had against outright fabrication from an unreliable source, quoted by Walken. It’s pretty tiring. There’s **plenty** of real things Netanyahu does and says that he can be criticized for, but showing him to be a power hungry jingoist who will destroy the country through corruption and cozying to radicals isn’t enough - he has to be painted as _genocidal_. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1198 "2023-11-04T20:16:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I am curious why some people expect Israel to agree to a cease fire while hostages are still being held by hamas. I mean, that’s not particularly difficult, even within Israel. There were reports of a demonstration in Tel Aviv today wanting a unilateral cease fire, with the idea of _then_ negotiating for hostage release somehow. That approach is not going to work, but it’s not as though that perspective is hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1199 "2023-11-04T20:44:09Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > For the sake of argument, let’s say Hamas is prepared to allow two million Palestinian civilians starve to death to achieve their aims. Does that mean the IDF also has carte blanche to do the same? I’m beginning to think Netanyahu/IDF simply _don’t care_ about Palestinians enough to care if 2 million die of hunger and thirst while Israel keeps up a siege around Gaza. I keep seeing repeated volleys of “It’s the fault of Hamas!” “It’s the fault of Israel!” Right now BOTH parties are subjecting 2 million Gazan inhabitants to hunger and thirst. BOTH parties. Maybe both sides of this war are so blood-maddened that they are both willing to see that many people at risk of death. In which case they’re all loathsome and evil. There is zero chance any Palestinians in Gaza can do anything about this as they have been abandoned and killed by both sides. I would _hope_ there are some Israelis that can do something. > [@Babale](#): > > > [@Polerius](#): > > > > For the sake of argument, let’s say Hamas is prepared to allow two million Palestinian civilians starve to death to achieve their aims. Does that mean the IDF also has carte blanche to do the same? > > No, but that’s also very clearly not what they are doing. If that was the IDF’s plan, why enter Gaza with ground troops? Again - I’m not convinced the IDF cares about or considers civilians in its calculations. For example - IF it was true that Hamas was using ambulances to transport their soldiers was it really necessary to target those ambulances _while they were at a hospital?_ That couldn’t be done when those vehicles were on the road? By targeting them _when at a hospital_ it guaranteed more civilian casualties than if those vehicles had been blown up while on a road. It sure looks from the outside like the IDF has a “target at all costs” approach to taking down Hamas and no amount of collateral damage is too much. Yes, Hamas is manipulating the situation to make Israel look bad, but it also seems like the IDF is doing nothing to mitigate those appearances, which do matter. Israel needs to win the PR war and not just the battlefield war. > [@Velocity](#): > > Not sure if this was posted upthread, but the NYT/Yahoo reports that a lot of liberal American Jews now find themselves strangely watching Fox News more than other outlets because of a more pro-Israel stance. What about the Fox commentators openly spewing bigoted remarks? Some “liberal American Jews” may be watching Fox more. Some of the rest of us are still disgusted by it. > [@suranyi](#): > > I just feel so sick. Politically, I’ve always been quite liberal. But I have a LOT of Israeli friends and relatives, and I can’t help but think primarily of their safety. It is entirely natural that you would have a more visceral and immediate concern for those you know and care about than for total strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1200 "2023-11-04T20:58:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Does your take on the map mean you also consider this image to be genocidal? Was that map presented by the Palestinian leader to the United Nations? Israel is taking practical steps to make its map a reality through its settler activity in the West Bank and its evicting of the residents of half of the Gaza Strip, combined with an Israeli government minister saying that Gaza “[must be smaller at the end of the war](https://forward.com/fast-forward/564999/israeli-minister-gaza-must-be-smaller-saar/)”. > [@Babale](#): > > In modern Judaism, any who want to destroy the Jewish people are portrayed as Amalek, most notably the Nazis. That’s the allusion Netanyahu is making. I take your point, but I would say it is still ambiguous and open to interpretation. I could certainly see it being taken in a literal rather than allegorical sense. > [@Babale](#): > > Just like when Walken claimed that Netanyahu told Gazans to leave Gaza before he flattens the entire place in 24 hours, I am once again forced to defend one of the most odious leaders Israel has ever had against outright fabrication from an unreliable source, quoted by Walken. It’s pretty tiring. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1201 "2023-11-04T21:06:47Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Just like when Walken claimed that Netanyahu told Gazans to leave Gaza before he flattens the entire place in 24 hours, I am once again forced to defend one of the most odious leaders Israel has ever had against outright fabrication from an unreliable source, quoted by Walken. It’s pretty tiring. > > Cite? > [@Hamas attacks Israel, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-attacks-israel-october-2023/991234/87): > > So much misinformation! Reposting from the other thread: > > > [@Are Palestinians in Gaza a distinct ethnic group? Is pushing Palestinians out of Gaza "ethnic cleansing?"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-palestinians-in-gaza-a-distinct-ethnic-group-is-pushing-palestinians-out-of-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/991255/7): > > > > Maybe rhetoric but this was posted by @Walken_After_Midnight in the other thread: > > > > [https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401](https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401) > > Here’s what Netanyahu said: > > > [@](#): > > > > כל המקומות שהחמאס מסתתר בהם ופועל בתוכם - נהפוך אותם לעיי חורבות. אני אומר לתושבי עזה, צאו משם עכשיו > > An accurate translation reads, ‘All the places that Hamas hides in and operates from - we will turn them into rubble. I am telling the citizens of Gaza, leave these places now.’ > > He’s talking about destroying specific buildings. > > Netanyahu is odious and vile. I feel dirty for having had to defend him, and will never forgive you for making me do so 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1202 "2023-11-04T21:18:42Z")
That’s not what I wrote. You wrote: > [@](#): > > Just like when Walken claimed that Netanyahu told Gazans to leave Gaza before he flattens the entire place in 24 hours, Here is what the Axios reporter tweeted and that I posted: > [@](#): > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on Palestinian civilians in Gaza to “leave now” because the Israeli military is going to “turn all Hamas hiding places into rubble” Here is your “accurate” translation, after you disputed what the Axios reporter wrote: > [@](#): > > ‘All the places that Hamas hides in and operates from - we will turn them into rubble. I am telling the citizens of Gaza, leave these places now.’ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1203 "2023-11-04T21:21:42Z")
I don’t want to derail this thread further. If you have issues with me, you have a pit thread for that. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1204 "2023-11-04T21:22:59Z")
Don’t worry, I’m used to you misrepresenting my posts now. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1205 "2023-11-04T21:28:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > For example - IF it was true that Hamas was using ambulances to transport their soldiers was it really necessary to target those ambulances _while they were at a hospital?_ Perhaps they would deliver the terrorists or their supplies before they could be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1206 "2023-11-04T22:17:27Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > In modern Judaism, any who want to destroy the Jewish people are portrayed as Amalek, most notably the Nazis. That’s the allusion Netanyahu is making. > > I take your point, but I would say it is still ambiguous and open to interpretation. I could certainly see it being taken in a literal rather than allegorical sense. I agree that it’s a reference that makes me uncomfortable. My Rabbi I’ve gave a sermon on the topic: Modern Jews are lucky that the amalekites are lost to history, because otherwise we would have an obligation to commit genocide. I realize it’s not usually interpreted literally these days. But there it is, a pretty ugly piece of Torah. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1207 "2023-11-04T22:48:53Z")
Moderating: > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Don’t worry, I’m used to you misrepresenting my posts now. That’s attacking the poster. As I’ve been pretty involved in this thread, I’m asking other mods for input. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1208 "2023-11-04T22:52:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > My Rabbi I’ve gave a sermon on the topic: Modern Jews are lucky that the amalekites are lost to history, because otherwise we would have an obligation to commit genocide. > > I realize it’s not usually interpreted literally these days. But there it is, a pretty ugly piece of Torah. Obviously this is my secular interpretation and more religious Jewish people may interpret it differently, but my understanding is that the Amalkite story is part of that foundation myth that was created in exile to unite the Israelites and Judeans (same reason why we have a mythical mingdom that encompasses both historically attested kingdoms). They aren’t attested anywhere outside the Bible, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1209 "2023-11-04T22:58:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This is an example of pure propaganda. …that was a tweet from a man paying tribute to his cousin’s husband, someone who was beloved in their community, who was killed along with their cousin, their children, and their grandchildren. Abdalhadi Alijla is an author living in Sweden, and I’m going to post the entirety of their post below: > [@Abdalhadi Alijla](#): > > My cousin’s husband, Abu Shadi, was renowned as one of the most famous kunafa sellers in Gaza. Last year, the queue at night in front of his shop on Salah al-Din Street would stretch very long. His kunafa was not only delicious and authentic but also affordable. He fondly referred to his kunafa as “the Poor’s Kunafa.”, He was killed along with my cousin, their children, and grandchildren. They didn’t even mention the IDF. They didn’t even mention _who killed them_. It was a loving tribute. Not propaganda. These stories remind me every day _what is lost_. That these aren’t “human shields.” They aren’t just unfortunate collateral damage. They aren’t _all_ “protecting tunnels, living above rocket storage.” Innocent Palestinian lives are treated in the _abstract_ here. To the point that a tribute to a family that didn’t even mention Israel gets called propaganda. It was 3700 children deaths yesterday. Today its 3900. On the West Bank, according to the UNOCHA since the 7th October 132 Palestinians have killed by Israeli forces or settlers. That includes _41 children_. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s an example of the US army screwing up, looking internally, deciding it screwed up, and apologizing for it. It was an example of transparency and accountability, something you claimed literally no nation at war in history had ever acted in this way, and doubted one ever would. > [@Babale](#): > > For example they just did it the other day when an artillery strike on Hezbollah forces killed a Reuters journalist (a photographer IIRC?). Israel apologized for that mistake, Yeah. About that. Assuming you are talking about Issam Abdallah: > **[Death of Reuters reporter Issam Abdallah: What happened on the...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmcPUzR9KE8%2F)** > > Reporters Without Borders (RSF) has released a video reconstruction of the tragedy that resulted in the death of one journalist and the injury of several oth... Reporters without Borders claim that their journalists were deliberately targeted and present evidence to back it up. The “apology” was we are “very sorry for the death of any civilian, whether they are journalists or any other civilians.” The incident is still under “investigation.” But I have no faith if the target wasn’t a media outlet that had documented exactly what happened, that an investigation would have happened in the first place. I remember when Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed. I remember the investigation. How it could not “unequivocally determine the source of the gunfire which hit Ms. Abu Akleh.” That it claimed it _might_ have been an accident in an account that doesn’t match up with the video or the eyewitnesses. I will never ever forget this. > **[Pallbearer describes attack on Shireen Abu Akleh’s funeral](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0jQ1DrBRag%2F)** > > “They kept beating.” One of the mourners who carried the coffin of Al Jazeera reporter Shireen Abu Akleh describes being attacked by Israeli forces ahead of ... > [@Babale](#): > > You think the IDF doesn’t review its own actions just like the US Army does? I don’t think the IDF thinks they are doing anything wrong here, so no, I won’t be expecting an objective review of their actions. > [@Riemann](#): > > the finger-pointing must be framed in a context of acknowledging that no nation on earth would tolerate the continued existence of Hamas next door It doesn’t matter how many times the finger-pointers condemn Hamas, it doesn’t matter how many times the finger-pointers say “taking out Hamas is right and just”, it doesn’t matter how many times the finger-pointers say "Hamas are evil, terrorists and murderers… It doesn’t matter how many times we say all of those things, you won’t listen to us unless we accept your _exact narrative frame_. I can tell you right now: the IDF aren’t going to listen to me even if _I did what you asked_. > [@Riemann](#): > > Israel are simply going to ignore you. As if they were going to listen to me anyway LOL. Since you are making demands of the “finger pointers” : the finger pointers will start listening to Israel when it ends administrative detention. When it ends its apartheid regime. When it lifts the siege. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1210 "2023-11-04T23:02:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It was an example of transparency and accountability, something you claimed literally no nation at war in history had ever acted in this way, and doubted one ever would. I said no nation would release intelligence to justify what they were doing. Obviously many armies including the IDF investigate themselves internally and apologize when they do something wrong, like the IDF did the other day after accidentally hitting a journalist. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1211 "2023-11-05T00:48:23Z")
5 posts were split to a new topic: [Is Israel an apartheid regime](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-an-apartheid-regime/992614) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1212 "2023-11-04T23:31:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It doesn’t matter how many times we say all of those things, you won’t listen to us unless we accept your _exact narrative frame_. This is not a “narrative” frame in the sense of an arbitrary perspective. It means dealing with reality rather than stating ideals. The problem here is not that we need to identify the psychopaths. We know who they are. Civilians are not dying because _Israel_ wants civilians to die. So just stating the absolute truth “it’s awful that innocent people are dying” contributes nothing to the debate, and shouting it _louder_ is not a morally superior position. What matters is finding an answer to the _difficult_ problem where conflicting absolute ideals _cannot_ be reconciled. A war can have a just objective, but no war can be fought without harming innocents. Unless you are prepared to engage with the difficult problem of how Israel can achieve their just objective in some better way, or to present a cogent argument that they should not pursue this objective at all _because the cost outweighs the benefit_, Israel will (quite reasonably) ignore you. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1214 "2023-11-04T23:51:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Innocent Palestinian lives are treated in the _abstract_ here. To the point that a tribute to a family that didn’t even mention Israel gets called propaganda. If this were a conflict where nobody knew what was happening, I would very much agree with you that the most vital task is bringing it to the world’s attention. But I would question whether making decisions based on a heartbreaking video is always right. Ten innocent Palestinian lives saved in 2033 is an abstraction, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1215 "2023-11-04T23:54:06Z")
> [@Is Israel an apartheid regime](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-an-apartheid-regime/992614/2): > > What matters right now is an end to the siege. I completely agree with you. And this means that we must remove the Hamas regime as quickly as possible. > [@Is Israel an apartheid regime](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-an-apartheid-regime/992614/2): > > Why is this only a one-way problem? What about the Palestinian people? What about _their_ objectives? The first necessary step to a safe and thriving future for the _Palestinian_ people is the removal of the Hamas regime from power. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1216 "2023-11-05T00:00:23Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But I would question whether making decisions based on a heartbreaking video is always right. …I’m not talking about “decisions.” I’m talking about people in this _thread_. > [@Riemann](#): > > And a prerequisite to this is removing the Hamas regime as quickly as possible. This isn’t a prerequisite under _international law_. And if Israel want to get the hostages back alive, then perhaps they _should stop the bombing as well._ > **[Hamas armed wing: More than 60 hostages are missing due to Israeli airstrikes](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-more-than-60-hostages-are-missing-due-israeli-airstrikes-2023-11-04/)** > > The armed wing of Palestinian militant faction Hamas said on Saturday that more than 60 hostages were missing because of Israeli airstrikes on Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1217 "2023-11-05T00:01:15Z")
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