# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1301 "2023-11-06T20:19:59Z")
Those organizations have different priorities than the IDF. Doctors without borders obviously wants to save lives, Amnesty International wants to free prisoners. I believe the IDF and Israeli government wants to preserve the lives of Israeli civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1302 "2023-11-06T20:26:41Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m not sure what could happen that would make you consider if the IDF has gone too far If the IDF targeted civilians, that would be going to far. And if there are incidents where that has occurred, which surely has happened in the history of the IDF, then the people responsible should absolutely be fired. But I have seen 0 evidence for anything like this. The only evidence provided is “but it’s a school!” and “but look at the numbers that the Ministry of Health put out!”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1303 "2023-11-06T20:29:21Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I just think there is a lot more that Israel and the IDF could be doing to support the children and civilians in Gaza. The number of dead children cannot be justified, and I am disappointed that so many accept that as an unavoidable cost. And that is why, again and again, I have asked those on your side to propose a solution that effectively combats Hamas without this level of civilian damage. Because you can keep insisting that another, better solution must exist, but unless you actually propose such a method, I think you are _wrong_ about that. Not because you support Hamas, but because you’re relying on unreliable information, much of it disseminated by Hamas allies. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1304 "2023-11-06T20:30:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I’m not sure I accept the conclusion that " the specific organization in place to do this perpetuates the conflict and coordinates with Hamas," absent some corroborating evidence. The much larger factor is the UNRWA’s ridiculous definition of “refugee”, which applies to Palestinians and no one else on the planet. As well as the way that they routinely [cover for Hamas.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/unwra-deletes-social-media-post-accusing-hamas-of-stealing-humanitarian-supplies/amp/) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1305 "2023-11-06T20:41:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Netanyahu has one proven track record. The World Health Organization, Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International, and the Human Rights Watch have a different track record Netanyahu is a real piece of shit, but he’s also not the one running the war, and those human rights organizations _do_ have a record in the region - one I don’t think nearly as highly of as you appear to. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1306 "2023-11-06T20:56:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The much larger factor is the UNRWA’s ridiculous definition of “refugee”, which applies to Palestinians and no one else on the planet. That seems a little inaccurate. [https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are](https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are) > [@](#): > > UNRWA is unique in terms of its long-standing commitment to one group of refugees. It has contributed to the welfare and human development of four generations of Palestine refugees, defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 War.” The fact that they define Palestine refugees as “one group of refugees” makes me think that they’re not treating them as equivalent. Given their establishment specifically > “to carry out […] direct relief and works programmes” for Palestine refugees it’d be odd for them to work with other refugees. There may be enough evidence for me to condemn them elsewhere, but that really doesn’t look like enough. Nor does the _National Review_ article, which raises suspicions but is hardly a smoking gun. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1307 "2023-11-06T21:02:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There may be enough evidence for me to condemn them elsewhere, but that really doesn’t look like enough. Nor does the _National Review_ article, which raises suspicions but is hardly a smoking gun. > **[UNRWA Has Changed the Definition of Refugee](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/17/unrwa-has-changed-the-definition-of-refugee/)** > > The U.N.'s agency for Palestinians should stop playing word games and do its job. No other group passes refugee status generation to generation. The only reason UNRWA is different is to enable the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to be perpetuated. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1308 "2023-11-06T21:03:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Given their establishment specifically > > > “to carry out […] direct relief and works programmes” for Palestine refugees > > it’d be odd for them to work with other refugees. Why do all refugees from all countries go through one group aside from Palestinian refugees who go through their own unique group with different rules for what a refugee is? And why is it that the differences _just so happen_ to create a pemenant refugee group? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1309 "2023-11-06T21:15:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And that is why, again and again, I have asked those on your side to propose a solution that effectively combats Hamas without this level of civilian damage. Because you can keep insisting that another, better solution must exist, but unless you actually propose such a method, I think you are _wrong_ about that. If your demand is for some random guy sitting at a computer to propose a specific military strategy that meets your standards before you’ll consider that the IDF is not taking the best approach, then I’d guess you aren’t going to be reevaluating any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1310 "2023-11-06T21:16:13Z")
“In 1965, UNRWA changed the eligibility requirements to be a Palestinian refugee to include third-generation descendants, and in 1982, it extended it again, to include all descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, regardless of whether they had been granted citizenship elsewhere.” All descendants of Palestine refugee males seems a bit odd. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1311 "2023-11-06T21:33:11Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > If your demand is for some random guy sitting at a computer to propose a specific military strategy that meets your standards before you’ll consider that the IDF is not taking the best approach, then I’d guess you aren’t going to be reevaluating any time soon. If you assume that the IDF is not taking the best approach it possibly can despite lacking a sufficient understanding of the situation to even suggest an alternative at the level of rigor necessary for an internet debate, then I’d guess you aren’t going to be reevaluating any time soon. If you aren’t comfortable suggesting an alternative, what makes you so sure one exists? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1312 "2023-11-06T21:42:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Why do all refugees from all countries go through one group aside from Palestinian refugees who go through their own unique group with different rules for what a refugee is? And why is it that the differences _just so happen_ to create a pemenant refugee group? > [@UNRWA](#): > > Is The Transfer Of Refugee Status To Descendants Unique To UNRWA? > > No. Under international law and the principle of family unity, the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found. [As stated by the United Nations](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/refugees),this principle applies to all refugees and both UNRWA and UNHCR have recognized descendants as refugees on this basis. > > … > > Palestine refugees are not distinct from other refugees in protracted refugee situations such as those from Afghanistan or Somalia, where there are multiple generations of refugees, registered by UNHCR as refugees and supported as such. Protracted refugee situations are the result of the failure to find political solutions to their underlying political crises. > [@](#): > > Why Is UNHCR Not Responsible For Palestine Refugees? > > UNHCR does not have a mandate over Palestine refugees within the UNRWA fields of operations (Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip). This is not a decision on the part of either UNRWA or UNHCR, but rather the result of decisions of the international community enshrined in the 1951 Refugee Convention and the UNHCR Statute (adopted by the General Assembly). > > In 1949, the UN General Assembly established two different UN refugee agencies – the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) – to respond to distinct refugee crises. The UN General Assembly provided these Agencies with complementary mandates to assist and protect refugees, as laid out in relevant instruments, including the Statute of UNHCR (adopted by a General Assembly resolution) and the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees (an international treaty). Neither UNRWA nor UNHCR can unilaterally change these instruments. [https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions](https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions) …I log into Twitter and Reddit and everyone is talking about the UNRWA. Then I log into the Dope and everyone here is talking about the UNRWA. The UNRWA isn’t the problem here. And they aren’t doing anything unusual. And on the one hand we’ve got a few teachers who made inappropriate tweets, and on the other hand we’ve got doctors and professors who signed a letter urging the bombing of hospitals. > **[רופאים ופרופסורים: "הפציצו את מפקדות חמאס בבתי החולים בעזה" - בחדרי חרדים](https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1613301)** > > עשרות רבות של רופאים ופרופסורים בקריאה דחופה להפציץ את קיני הטרור ומפקדות חמאס בבתי החולים בעזה. "מקום שמהווה בית לטרור אינו בית רפואה המוגן מלוחמה" I’m not going to be judging every teacher in the UNRWA or every doctor in Israel based on either of these things. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1313 "2023-11-06T21:42:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > All descendants of Palestine refugee males seems a bit odd. Depends on whether your goal is to help solve the conflict or perpetuate it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1314 "2023-11-06T21:44:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you assume that the IDF is not taking the best approach it possibly can despite lacking a sufficient understanding of the situation to even suggest an alternative at the level of rigor necessary for an internet debate, then I’d guess you aren’t going to be reevaluating any time soon. …I’m assuming the IDF are not taking the best approach because of the over _4000 dead children_. And I’m not going to be reevaluating any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1315 "2023-11-06T21:45:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m assuming the IDF are not taking the best approach because of the over _4000 dead children_. Again: > [@Babale](#): > > If you aren’t comfortable suggesting an alternative, what makes you so sure one exists? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1316 "2023-11-06T21:47:04Z")
Would it help if the IDF turned Iron Dome off and put soldiers inside the bomb shelters to keep out Israeli children until the body count evened out a bit? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1317 "2023-11-06T21:48:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you aren’t comfortable suggesting an alternative, what makes you so sure one exists? …the alternative is to stop killing the children. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1318 "2023-11-06T21:48:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > If you aren’t comfortable suggesting an alternative, what makes you so sure one exists? > > …the alternative is to stop killing the children Got it, so Israel should let Hamas kill Israelis with impunity as long as they find a kid to hide behind. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1319 "2023-11-06T21:52:25Z")
My take on it is that no matter what at the end of Israel’s response to the attack, Hamas is going to have leadership, members and weapons to carry out another 10/7 attack. The main way to prevent that was always going to be security and intelligence. I would still support a military response to cripple Hamas to the extent that is reasonable. I think there actually are high level Hamas leaders where if the best you can do kill them involves dozens of civilians dying that is still a worthy tradeoff. Based on the amount of bombs dropped on Gaza, they are pretty clearly going after lower level members that we’ve seen time and time again Hamas have little trouble recruiting replacements. So I would bomb a lot fewer Hamas members, even if they are using human shields. But I ultimately think that the number of deaths we’ve seen cannot be reasonable because Hamas will still be able to regroup as they always have in this conflict. And while I could be wrong it seems like Israel is not planning on perpetually occupying Gaza, but if the plan is to temporarily occupy and take out a lot more of Hamas’s infrastructure, it would make sense to do the evacuation order and then not extensively bomb the areas they tell people to evacuate to. And I don’t think it’s been necessary to shut off the water, electricity etc. at any point. If they modified their operation to do everything else and just never do that, it would have been more humane without compromising any legitimate strategic goal of reducing the ability of Hamas to attack them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1320 "2023-11-06T21:53:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > as long as they find a kid to hide behind. …4000 Palestinian children aren’t dead because “Hamas are hiding behind them.” They are dead because the IDF strategy is indiscriminate and hasn’t prioritised not killing innocents. Add to this the siege, which doesn’t target Hamas, but targets the 2.5 million people living in the Strip. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=62)