# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1321 "2023-11-06T22:00:12Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > My take on it is that no matter what at the end of Israel’s response to the attack, Hamas is going to have leadership, members and weapons to carry out another 10/7 attack. The main way to prevent that was always going to be security and intelligence. Hamas will need to be eliminated through displacement. Right now it has the Gaza Strip in an iron grip, so military action is needed. But after this Israel will not be able to withdraw from Gaza until another group to replace Hamas is in place. And if Hamas or a successor group tries to topple that group, international support (or failing that Israel) will be needed to stop this from happening. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …4000 Palestinian children aren’t dead because “Hamas are hiding behind them.” They are dead because the IDF strategy is indiscriminate and hasn’t prioritised not killing innocents You have provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions and repeating the casualty count. Zero. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Add to this the siege, which doesn’t target Hamas, but targets the 2.5 million people living in the Strip. Of course the siege targets Hamas. Where do you think the equipment they use comes from? Spontaneous generation? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1322 "2023-11-06T22:02:54Z")
It seems like the main issue isn’t the concept of a ceasefire, per se, but of creating a ceasefire that both sides have reason to believe will be respected by the other. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1323 "2023-11-06T22:04:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You have provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions and repeating the casualty count. …“You have provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions” said the person who has provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions. I’ve provided multiple cites throughout the thread. But the mere _existence_ of the siege is most telling here. The siege doesn’t target Hamas. It targets _everybody_ in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1324 "2023-11-06T22:04:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Hamas will need to be eliminated through displacement. Right now it has the Gaza Strip in an iron grip, so military action is needed. But after this Israel will not be able to withdraw from Gaza until another group to replace Hamas is in place. And if Hamas or a successor group tries to topple that group, international support (or failing that Israel) will be needed to stop this from happening. Even in the hypothetical where Israel installs a new government that is able to box Hamas out of having a base of operations in Gaza, Hamas can still do what the PLO did back in the day and operate in neighboring countries with allies such as Hezbollah. And I don’t think international support will be able to protect the new government from Hamas. The international community trying to project power that way has more oven than not failed, especially in the last few decades in the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1325 "2023-11-06T22:06:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course the siege targets Hamas. Where do you think the equipment they use comes from? Spontaneous generation? …electricity. Water. Food. This isn’t equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1326 "2023-11-06T22:07:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …electricity. Water. Food. This isn’t equipment I’m sure the Iranians label the boxes of rockets accurately 🤦‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1327 "2023-11-06T22:09:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m sure the Iranians label the boxes of rockets accurately 🤦‍♂️ … Israel can send in the food and the water. They can check every truck. Even ask the United Nations to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1328 "2023-11-06T22:12:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > said the person who has provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions. Other than video evidence of Hamasniks shooting from hospitals LOL ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1329 "2023-11-06T22:14:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Other than video evidence of Hamasniks shooting from hospitals LOL …I don’t think talking about 4000 dead children deserves a LOL, to be honest. And video evidence of Hamasniks shooting from hospitals doesn’t really seem like a good excuse for such a _massive_ toll on the civilian population of the Gaza Strip. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1330 "2023-11-06T22:21:48Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And video evidence of Hamasniks shooting from hospitals doesn’t really seem like a good excuse for such a _massive_ toll on the civilian population of the Gaza Strip You’re right, that was the only time they used civilians as human shields, the rest were just used for target practice 🙄 You know what my dude? I’m done trying to spoil your innocence. Enjoy your idyllic little island where you have the luxury of pretending that war is neat and clean. Hopefully China never decides to shatter that illusion. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1331 "2023-11-06T22:25:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …4000 Palestinian children aren’t dead because “Hamas are hiding behind them.” You’ve quoted this figure repeatedly. However, the only source I can find for it is the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry. Have you any independent corroboration of that figure? Because I’m not prepared to take Hamas’s word on what color the sky is, let alone how many casualties they’ve incurred. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1332 "2023-11-06T22:47:15Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > However, the only source I can find for it is the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry. > [@The Intercept](#): > > Biden’s claim was quickly rejected by human rights organizations that have been active in Gaza for years. The Associated Press noted that the Ministry of Health’s figures from [previous conflicts](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) have broadly matched the numbers arrived at by both the Israeli government and the United Nations. And [the State Department itself](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-gaza-death-toll-state-department_n_653a80f3e4b0783c4ba0491f) has long considered the numbers reliable. > > … > > The Gaza Ministry of Health, meanwhile, responded by publishing a list of names of 6,747 who had died as of October 26 since the bombing campaign began, including 2,664 children. The list included 2,665 children, but The Intercept found that one 14-year-old boy was listed twice, bringing its total down to 6,746. Otherwise the list does not contain duplicates. > > … > > The list of those killed includes four different last names: 30 members of one branch of the family, nine from another, four from a third, and three from a fourth. > > Of those 46 members of Al-Dada’s family so far lost in the war, 43 appear on the list, from the littlest — a baby girl not yet 1 — to the oldest, a 71-year-old grandmother. > **[Biden’s Conspiracy Theory About Gaza Casualty Numbers Unravels Upon Inspection](https://theintercept.com/2023/10/31/gaza-death-palestine-health-ministry/)** > > One Palestinian American lost more than 40 relatives in Gaza. We found them on the Ministry of Health list. …there has been independent confirmation of the numbers, the names have been provided and if you want to do your own independent confirmation, you are welcome to. In the past, the numbers have been shown to be broadly accurate, often they are an _undercount_. And the numbers are being used by the US State Department, NGO’s, and much of the news media. But if you don’t want to believe these numbers, a senior Israeli security source thinks the numbers are double the Hamas figures, at 20,000 dead. I don’t know where they got that number from, but if you want to believe that twice as Hamas have claimed to have died have died, I’m not going to stop you. > **[Israel security source claim 20,000 killed in Gaza](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231105-israel-security-source-claim-20000-killed-in-gaza/)** > > A senior Israeli security source has disclosed that an estimated 20,000 people were killed in occupation airstrikes in the Gaza Strip. Itamar Eichner, the diplomatic correspondent of Yedioth Ahronoth  wrote... ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1333 "2023-11-06T23:04:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You’re right, that was the only time they used civilians as human shields, the rest were just used for target practice 🙄 …when we talk about “zero evidence” and " self righteous assertions" I think its entirely fair to talk about the matter of “human shields.” Because you have continually framed the deaths of thousands of Palestinian children as “Hamas were hiding behind them” or “they were human shields” and refusing to even consider they were killed as the result of indiscriminate bombing. I have no problem believing that in war, sometimes unfortunate choices have to be made. But just saying they are “human shields” isn’t _evidence_ that those 4000 children were human shields. And when I talked about accountability and transparency earlier in the thread, it’s this that I’m talking about. A few videos of rockets allegedly being fired from a hospital isn’t evidence of wide-spread use of children as human shields. Unless you are using a much broader definition of what a human shield is and if you are, you really should share that with the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1334 "2023-11-06T23:14:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > and refusing to even consider they were killed as the result of indiscriminate bombing. If you’re going to accuse Israel of the horrible crime of indiscriminate bombing, then provide some fucking evidence. And no, a number of dead children is not evidence of indiscriminate bombing. Evidence that Israel is not aiming at valid military targets is. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A few videos of rockets allegedly being fired from a hospital isn’t evidence of wide-spread use of children as human shields Come on, man. That’s not what the videos show and you know it. There aren’t a handful of dudes occassionally taking potshots from behind school busses. Hamas’s headquarters in multiple neighborhoods of Gaza are literally built under hospitals, as the videos show. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1335 "2023-11-06T23:26:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you’re going to accuse Israel of the horrible crime of indiscriminate bombing, then provide some fucking evidence. …I’m perfectly happy to share story-after-story-after-story about entire families that have been killed during the bombing campaign. How many do you want? Give me a number. But once I’ve posted them, its over to you. Show me evidence that they were “human shields.” Tell me _why_ their home or the refugee camp of the hospital or the school they were sheltering was targeted. Don’t just _assert_ it. Provide evidence. Just give me a number. > [@Babale](#): > > Hamas’s headquarters in multiple neighborhoods of Gaza are literally built under hospitals, as the videos show. You _aren’t connecting the dots_. Is there evidence of human shields in any of the videos that were posted? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1336 "2023-11-06T23:30:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You _aren’t connecting the dots_. Is there evidence of human shields in any of the videos that were posted? Yes, of course there is. If there is a hospital that was hit by a bomb, and it was hit by a bomb because it sits on top of Hamas HQ, then yes, the people who were hit were being used as human shields by Hamas. That’s why Hamas put their HQ there. I’m confused, did you think “human shield” meant only this? [![](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/hostage-criminal-thief-character-gun-crime-threat-buyout-request-icon-cartoon-design-vector-illustration-116868004.jpg) ](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/hostage-criminal-thief-character-gun-crime-threat-buyout-request-icon-cartoon-design-vector-illustration-116868004.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1337 "2023-11-06T23:43:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If there is a hospital that was hit by a bomb, and it was hit by a bomb because it sits on top of Hamas HQ, …this isn’t evidence. This is an _assertion_. Which hospital? What day? What time? What casualties? > [@Babale](#): > > I’m confused, did you think “human shield” meant only this? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Unless you are using a much broader definition of what a human shield is and if you are, you really should share that with the rest of us. I’ve asked you to share your definition. Is this your definition? Because if it is, then once again, where is the evidence that this is the case for even some of the 4000 children that have died so far in the campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1338 "2023-11-06T23:55:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What day? What time? What casualties? Do you think Hamas moves their HQ tunnels? This is a permenant base of operations. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Is this your definition? Because if it is, then once again, where is the evidence that this is the case for even some of the 4000 children that have died so far in the campaign? If Hamas builds an HQ under a neighborhood in Jabalia or under Indonesian Hospital or under Sheik Hamad hospital and Israel bombs that HQ then yes the people who are on the surface are being using as human shields. I am unsure what other definition you possibly thought I might be using but since that appears to be a point of confusion I hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1339 "2023-11-07T00:01:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Do you think Hamas moves their HQ tunnels? …which hospital? What evidence is there that Hamas has HQ tunnels there? Which civilian casualties died that you consider “human shields?” > [@Babale](#): > > If Hamas builds an HQ We aren’t talking about “ifs.” Please don’t accuse me of bringing “zero evidence” and " self righteous assertions" when your entire argument seems to be hinged on an “if.” And if the bombing campaign is predicated on an “if” then I think I’m entirely justified in calling that bombing _indiscriminate_. I’ve asked you for _evidence_. If you can’t provide it, that’s fine. That’s just the reality of how these things work sometimes. But don’t accuse me of having zero evidence when this is as good as your argument gets. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1340 "2023-11-07T00:05:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …which hospital? What evidence is there that Hamas has HQ tunnels there? Which civilian casualties died that you consider “human shields?” I’m not gonna play these games. The video I linked above included photos that show these tunnels at the three locations I described, as well as missile launch pads and militants firing small arms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=63)