# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1341 "2023-11-07T00:05:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if the bombing campaign is predicated on an “if” then I think I’m entirely justified in calling that bombing _indiscriminate_. > > I’ve asked you for _evidence_. If you can’t provide it, that’s fine. That’s just the reality of how these things work sometimes. But don’t accuse me of having zero evidence when this is as good as your argument gets. I was answering your request to define a human shield. None of those “Ifs” are hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1342 "2023-11-07T00:19:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The video I linked above included photos that show these tunnels at the three locations I described, as well as missile launch pads and militants firing small arms. …and how many civilian casualties happened there? It isn’t a “game” to ask for details about human shields in a discussion about _human shields_. We aren’t talking about the _buildings_. > [@Babale](#): > > None of those “Ifs” are hypothetical. For the sake of your argument lets remove the people that died at Jabalia or under Indonesian Hospital or under Sheik Hamad hospital from the equation. We know from the data I cited yesterday that there have been 504 fatalities documented by WHO from IDF attacks on health care. We know that at least 50 died at Jabalia. Lets remove them from the equation. Let asume about a quarter of those deaths were children. So lets round it down to about 100. The current death toll is :: checks :: 4104 children. So it won’t be long before it tops 5000. Most didn’t die at the hospitals, and they didn’t die at Jabalia. What were the other 4000 children that died shielding? And can you provide any evidence for that? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1343 "2023-11-07T00:24:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and how many civilian casualties happened there? It isn’t a “game” to ask for details about human shields in a discussion about _human shields_. We aren’t talking about the _buildings_. Again, I am not going to be able to provide you a full account of every bomb dropped by Israel, as you well know. No country on Earth fights wars with the level of transparency you demand. If that’s what you’re looking for, then you’ve already determined that Israel is presumed guilty. Not gonna play that game; you can enjoy feeling morally superior. Israel does not bomb civilians willy-nilly. You can make those accusations as much as you want, you can declare Israel guilty until proven innocent for not meeting your laughable standard of evidence. But don’t expect me to take any of that seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1344 "2023-11-07T00:34:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel does not bomb civilians willy-nilly. > [@Babale](#): > > You have provided zero evidence for this other than self righteous assertions > [@](#): > > Zero. …says it all, really. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1345 "2023-11-07T00:36:25Z")
I’m not the one alleging cold-blooded mass murder. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Zero Ignoring the video evidence, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1346 "2023-11-07T00:37:29Z")
I am getting echoes of a discussion we had about nuclear energy. I don’t think further conversation is productive. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1347 "2023-11-07T00:37:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m not the one alleging cold-blooded mass murder. …you used the word murder, not me. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1348 "2023-11-07T00:38:57Z")
The allegation isn’t of “cold blooded mass murder”. It’s of “callous disregard for civilian casualties”. Do you think the IDF would target an Israeli hospital full of Israeli children just because they knew a terrorist general was in the building? I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1349 "2023-11-07T00:40:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The allegation isn’t of “cold blooded mass murder”. On the other hand, “genocide” is a word that’s been tossed around in this debate, including on this very board, so it’s not like actual allegations of cold blooded mass murder are nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1350 "2023-11-07T00:43:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Do you think the IDF would target an Israeli hospital full of Israeli children just because they knew a terrorist general was in the building? I don’t. This is an odd way to frame them targeting a network of tunnels that includes both a terrorist general as well as many of his men, equipment, etc that sits under a hospital. And as I said earlier about the comparison to America, if that hospital full of Israeli children was in the middle of Gaza, such that storming it on foot was impossible? Well, there are over 200 Israeli hostages taken into Gaza, presumably into the tunnels which Israel is bombing so hard. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1351 "2023-11-07T00:47:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The allegation isn’t of “cold blooded mass murder”. It’s of “callous disregard for civilian casualties”. @Banquet_Bear is asking for proof that there was a legitimate military target being bombed in each case. If the IDF bombed civilians with no underlying military target, that would be identical to what Hamas does, which I think we all agree is cold blooded murder. So if @Banquet_Bear needs proof of an underlying valid target, I take that as an accusation that the IDF is attacking civilians for shits and giggles or out of a desire for genocide. If I am mistaken he’s welcome to correct me, but I am confident that this is not happening even if I can’t meet his ridiculous standard of proof: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The current death toll is :: checks :: 4104 children. So it won’t be long before it tops 5000. Most didn’t die at the hospitals, and they didn’t die at Jabalia. > > What were the other 4000 children that died shielding? And can you provide any evidence for that? Unless I am drastically misinterpreting him, he is asking for information on exactly what the IDF was targeting at each location struck with the assumption being that there was no underlying military target until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1352 "2023-11-07T00:52:28Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > On the other hand, “genocide” is a word that’s been tossed around in this debate, including on this very board, so it’s not like actual allegations of cold blooded mass murder are nonexistent. As I said before, it’s entirely taken over some of the Twitter accounts I subscribe to. I’ve blocked literally hundreds of accounts that have been breathlessly acting as stenographers for Hamas and crowing about hiw every single bombing is proof that Israel is trying to eradicate the Palestinian race, and that every 17-year-old Hamasnik who gets a bullet between the eyes while sniping at the IDF is proof that “THEY’RE MURDERING CHILDREN”. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1353 "2023-11-07T01:13:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > needs proof of an underlying valid target, I take that as an accusation that the IDF is attacking civilians for shits and giggles or out of a desire for genocide. …I think that the death toll demands accountability and transparency. That’s been my position from the start. And it isn’t enough just to wave your hands and dismiss the siege and to dismiss the amount of innocent people that have died here as “hiding behind Hamas.” I’m not obligated to treat the IDF as “honest broker” here. They have a history, and it isn’t a good one. And I’m not relying on “Hamas propaganda.” I’m relying on decades of reporting from the UN, from humanitarian agencies, from NGO’s, from hard-hitting, independent reporting. My standard of proof isn’t very high. Not at this _scale_. When we take away the hospitals and Jabalia, that you’ve talked about extensively here, because only a tiny fraction of people during the campaign died there. What about everyone else? Let’s just looks at the _journalists_. Mohammad Al-Jaja and several members of his family were killed at their home yesterday. What were they shielding? Mohammad Abu Hattab and his family were killed three days ago at his home. Who were they shielding? The family of Wael al-Dahdouh, who moved to a house in the Nuseirat camp after warnings to move south were heeded, were killed a couple of weeks ago. Who were these people shielding? These people, in their houses, were killed during the bombing campaign. What were the targets? “Just trust me bro” isn’t a good enough argument. I posted a video earlier in the thread that made it clear that as far as the IDF are concerned, the entire Gaza strip is a valid target. What reason are you giving me not to believe the very words the IDF are saying? If the numbers were congruent with other military actions that have taken place around the world in recent years that would be understandable. But they aren’t. And if the reason that they aren’t is because “Hamas are hiding behind civilians” then it isn’t unreasonable to ask for that proof. And if the IDF aren’t going to provide that proof, then it isn’t unreasonable to call for a ceasefire and an _end to the siege._ ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1354 "2023-11-07T01:18:25Z")
Calling for a ceasefire is easy. Actually making one happen is hard, as I alluded to before. Serious question: what methods are available to actually assure both sides that the other is going to honor it? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1355 "2023-11-07T01:18:55Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > On the other hand, “genocide” is a word that’s been tossed around in this debate, including on this very board, so it’s not like actual allegations of cold blooded mass murder are nonexistent. …geocide is defined as " _In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:_" > **[United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)** > > Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect It isn’t just mass-murder. Whether or not all of these elements are here or not is probably a debate better suited for another thread. But the people who are calling it this aren’t just plucking the term out of thin air. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1356 "2023-11-07T01:21:14Z")
So is puzzlegal’s response to Babale above accurate to your opinion? That’s what had me confused. (Namely that you are alleging “callous disregard for civilian life,” not “cold blooded mass murder.”) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1357 "2023-11-07T01:25:07Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Calling for a ceasefire is easy. …_not_ calling for a ceasefire means well we will hit 6000 dead children in the next few days. It means the impact of disease and lack of food and water and the dead bodies that are still buried and rotting under the rubble will just continue to get worse. I wouldn’t anticipate a ceasefire to be “easy.” But that isn’t a reason not to call for one. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1358 "2023-11-07T01:25:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So is puzzlegal’s response to Babale above accurate to your opinion? …I think so. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1359 "2023-11-07T01:27:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My standard of proof isn’t very high. Not at this _scale_. When we take away the hospitals and Jabalia, that you’ve talked about extensively here, because only a tiny fraction of people during the campaign died there. What about everyone else? What _about_ everyone else? If you expect Israel to release a bomb-by-bomb justification for every airstrike then you may as well just condemn us as genociding maniacs because we all know that isn’t going to happen. Am I supposed to know who these journalists are or in what part of Gaza they live? Looking up their names just told me that they were killed in an airstrike so I’m not sure how you expect anyone to look into this for you. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1360 "2023-11-07T01:28:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > Do you think the IDF would target an Israeli hospital full of Israeli children just because they knew a terrorist general was in the building? I don’t. > > This is an odd way to frame them targeting a network of tunnels that includes both a terrorist general as well as many of his men, equipment, etc that sits under a hospital. I don’t think it’s an odd framing at all. What if Hamas had tunneled under a nearby settlement, was holding all the settlers at gunpoint to keep them there, and ALSO had a significant military operation underneath? I don’t think the IDF would just bomb 500 Israelis to get 20 important terrorists. I think they would find some other solution, probably including men on the ground with guns, and more casualties among Israel armed forces. Because I think the IDF is trying to protect Israeli lives, but doesn’t really care about Palestinians. No, I don’t think they are actively targeting random Palestinian civilians. But I don’t think they are taking much care to avoid excessive deaths in that group, either. And the deaths among random Palestinian civilians are awfully high, no matter whose numbers you believe. Heck, the deaths among UN workers are pretty high. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=64)