# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1361 "2023-11-07T01:29:35Z")
But my point was, calling for one without some kind of assurances to both sides is just a waste of time. So we should be looking for ways to make those assurances and have them be believed. Thus my asking what mechanisms we had to “enforce” any assurances that a ceasefire will hold. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1362 "2023-11-07T01:30:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Am I supposed to know who these journalists are or in what part of Gaza they live? Looking up their names just told me that they were killed in an airstrike so I’m not sure how you expect anyone to look into this for you. No, of course not. But killing journalists is kind of a big deal. Journalists keep us all honest. They post photos. They tell stories. Yes, they post propaganda, too. But you don’t know why they were killed because the IDF hasn’t felt the need to justify those deaths. And maybe Israel _ought_ to feel a need to justify those deaths. Just as the US was pressured to admit that it shouldn’t have bombed a hospital in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1363 "2023-11-07T01:35:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No, of course not. But killing journalists is kind of a big deal. Journalists keep us all honest. They post photos. They tell stories. Yes, they post propaganda, too. But you don’t know why they were killed because the IDF hasn’t felt the need to justify those deaths. And maybe Israel _ought_ to feel a need to justify those deaths. Just as the US was pressured to admit that it shouldn’t have bombed a hospital in Afghanistan I certainly have no issue with an investigation into this or any other airstrike, as I’ve said before. What I take issue with is the presumption of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1364 "2023-11-07T01:45:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you expect Israel to release a bomb-by-bomb justification for every airstrike then you may as well just condemn us as genociding maniacs because we all know that isn’t going to happen. …the only evidence that we have to work with are the testimony of the survivors. And while early on there were a few scattered reports of Hamas putting up roadblocks, I haven’t seen any reporting or testimony from the ground in Gaza that anyone fits even _your_ definition or characterization of a “human shield” at all. The evidence overwhelmingly supports the idea that these people are being bombed for no good reason. The IDF don’t have to provide justification if they don’t want too. But I’ll make judgements with the evidence that I have. And the evidence strongly supports the idea that the bombing is largely indiscriminate. > [@Babale](#): > > Am I supposed to know who these journalists are or in what part of Gaza they live? Looking up their names just told me that they were killed in an airstrike so I’m not sure how you expect anyone to look into this for you. We don’t have to talk about them. You tell me. If not them, who do you want to talk about? For the purposes of this discussion, I’ll concede that the hospitals and the Jabalia had valid targets under them. That still leaves us with an estimated 4000 children dead. Is it your position that all of them were human shields, most of them, some of them, or we have no way of knowing? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1365 "2023-11-07T01:45:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And I’m not relying on “Hamas propaganda.” I’m relying on decades of reporting from the UN, from humanitarian agencies, from NGO’s, from hard-hitting, independent reporting. …which are all relying on Hamas propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1366 "2023-11-07T01:46:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …which are all relying on Hamas propaganda. …this is incorrect. I’ve cited plenty of them above in this thread. They are all very well sourced and documented. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1367 "2023-11-07T01:47:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > . I’ve cited plenty of them above in this thread. You’ve cited lots of things. You’ve also completely refused to defend them or argue for them when they have been questioned. You still haven’t said whose territory you think Gaza is, either. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1368 "2023-11-07T01:48:58Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Thus my asking what mechanisms we had to “enforce” any assurances that a ceasefire will hold. …ceasefires aren’t _new things_. There are no _guarantees_. This has _always_ been the case. It isn’t a reason not to seek one. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1369 "2023-11-07T01:51:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I haven’t seen any reporting or testimony from the ground in Gaza that anyone fits even _your_ definition or characterization of a “human shield” at all You haven’t seen any people at the three hospitals mentioned or in Jabalia? Strange. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1370 "2023-11-07T01:51:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’ve also completely refused to defend them or argue for them when they have been questioned. …I’m not allowed to defend some of those citations in this thread any more. And if you want to question any of the others, please let me know. But I’m not parroting Hamas propaganda. It’s a _tired_ and _boring_ accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1371 "2023-11-07T01:53:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You haven’t seen any people at the three hospitals mentioned or in Jabalia? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > For the purposes of this discussion, I’ll concede that the hospitals and the Jabalia had valid targets under them. …that accounts for about 100 of the _4100_ dead children. I’m asking about the other 4000. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1372 "2023-11-07T01:54:30Z")
Great, glad we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1373 "2023-11-07T01:56:57Z")
…I’m not entirely sure what we are agreeing on, but my position is that we should be calling for an immediate ceasefire. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1374 "2023-11-07T01:58:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m asking about the other 4000. How many of those “children” were Hamas foot soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1375 "2023-11-07T01:58:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …that accounts for about 100 of the _4100_ dead children. I’m asking about the other 4000. Stop moving the goal posts. I posted in reply to this: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I haven’t seen any reporting or testimony from the ground in Gaza that anyone fits even _your_ definition or characterization of a “human shield” at all ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1376 "2023-11-07T01:59:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > my position is that we should be calling for an immediate ceasefire. Fine by me. Tell Hamas to stop shooting first. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1377 "2023-11-07T02:01:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How many of those “children” were Hamas foot soldiers? …you tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1378 "2023-11-07T02:04:38Z")
That’s appropriate, because I’m not sure what you think I’m saying that you’re arguing against. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1379 "2023-11-07T02:17:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Stop moving the goal posts. I posted in reply to this: …goalpost haven’t moved. For the purposes of this discussion I’ve conceded that the hospitals and Jabalia were valid targets, and as per your definition, makes any civilians killed in those locations “human shields.” There have been 500 killed at the hospitals, 50 at Jabalia, citations for those numbers all cited up thread. I estimated, conservatively, that out of those 550, maybe 100 of those numbers may have been children. If we take those out of the equation, then that still leaves us with an estimated 4000 children dead. Is it your contention that all of those children were human shields, or some of those children, or we have no way of knowing? ---
**Author:** ![nitter](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nitter/32/15360_2.png) [@nitter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nitter)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1380 "2023-11-07T02:38:12Z")
Glad no need to started a hot war with Soviet Union, otherwise you can’t distinguish which child is not a Young Pioneers. > Membership was at 161,000 in the beginning of 1924, 2 million in 1926, 13.9 million in 1940, and 25 million in 1974. tbh humanitarian doesn’t work wells for some reason after 19th century. And ‘human shield’ is the most euphemistic way of saying it, the most role of children is scout. It’s a mature tactics during WWII and Widely used in the Baath Parties system too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=65)