# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1381 "2023-11-07T02:44:19Z")
> [@nitter](#): > > the most role of children is scout. > [@Smapti](#): > > How many of those “children” were Hamas foot soldiers? …the list of names of the children that have died so far in the conflict have been made public. I’m unaware of any allegations that any children on the list were “Hamas foot soldiers” or “Scouts”. 2000 of the names released last week were under the age of 12. I’ve just done a cursory search of the news over the last few days and nobody else seems to be making these allegations. Can I ask, where is this coming from? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1382 "2023-11-07T02:51:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can I ask, where is this coming from? > **[mde150352004en.pdf](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150352004en.pdf)** > > 110.28 KB > **[AHRC46NGO42\_050321.pdf](https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/AHRC46NGO42_050321.pdf)** > **[Is Hamas resorting to training kids to defend Gaza? Reports suggest so](https://www.wionews.com/world/are-hamas-resorted-to-training-kids-to-defend-gaza-reports-suggests-so-647418)** > > As per the new videos getting circulated on social media, school-aged children are being allegedly trained by Hamas commanders to defend the Gaza Strip as the Israeli army prepares for ground operations in the region.  > > Children as young as 14... > **[Hamas resorts to 'training children to defend Gaza'](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12634107/Hamas-resorts-training-children-defend-Gaza-Israeli-troops-mass-border.html)** > > Terrorists are training children as young as 14 for battle, with some even younger apparently being trained in military drills and weapons skills, an Israeli emergency responder unit has claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1383 "2023-11-07T02:54:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > my position is that we should be calling for an immediate ceasefire. > > Fine by me. Tell Hamas to stop shooting first. I don’t think that’s how “ceasefire” works. AIUI, a ceasefire is an agreement negotiated by mediation with (usually?) a third party, where the warring parties mutually agree on the conditions for halting active conflict, either as a step in a conflict-ending peace process or as a temporary measure. Refusing to consider discontinuing violence unless and until the other party unilaterally discontinues violence first isn’t how you get to “ceasefire”, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1384 "2023-11-07T03:04:38Z")
…I’m going to dismiss the Daily Mail _outright_. You’ve got a cite from 2004. The 2021 report cites the alarming use of propaganda and incitement, which were valid. And notes that 9 children that were killed had links with terrorist groups, including “having a father who was a senior member of Hamas”, another who was documented “throwing stones”, and another who said “r “Allah willing, I’ll become a martyr [shahid] fighting in the path of Allah.”” This isn’t strong evidence of Hamas footsoldiers at the kind of scale that would explain 4000 Palestinian children dead. It certainly isn’t something the IDF have _claimed_ as an explanation for the large death toll. ---
**Author:** ![nitter](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nitter/32/15360_2.png) [@nitter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nitter)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1385 "2023-11-07T03:05:43Z")
> **[New Israeli documentary shows 'Children's Army of Hamas'](https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/New-Israeli-documentary-shows-Hamas-training-child-soldiers-395928)** > > In documentary presented to the UN, Hamas appears to acknowledge that it is breaking international law by training and indoctrinating child soldiers. This is a common strategy used by total war organizations. It requires neither military lists nor age limits (If you watched Albanian or Romanian WWII movies, 6-year-old child solider are very common and widely used). Innocent children is a propaganda tactic, as same as accuse enemy use child scout is a propaganda too. I don’t want to defend Israel or accuse your moral insistence. I’m just trying to point out that you can never distinguish them, don’t wasted time on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1386 "2023-11-07T03:11:34Z")
> [@nitter](#): > > This is a common strategy used by total war organizations. …that’s a cite from 2015. I’m asking about _this conflict_. And I’m talking about _this_ death toll, and I’m talking about _specifics_. If we are pivoting from “Hamas are hiding behind children” to “those children are _actually_ Hamas” then thats fine. I’ll ask the same question: Do you think _all_ of the child deaths were Hamas footsoldiers, or that _some_ of the child deaths were Hamas footsoldiers, or we have no real way of knowing? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1387 "2023-11-07T03:12:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > that’s a cite from 2015. I’m asking about _this conflict_ Is there some reason to believe that Hamas has changed its ways between 2015 and now? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1388 "2023-11-07T03:14:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m going to dismiss the Daily Mail _outright_. OK, here’s another source for the same information. > **[Unseen impact of Israel-Hamas war](https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/horrible-things-unseen-impact-of-israelhamas-war-on-children/news-story/1c46459e99468c1491aec063cf8d6066)** > > More than a week after Hamas launched its surprise attack on Israel, the militant group are reportedly training children for battle. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1389 "2023-11-07T03:22:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Is there some reason to believe that Hamas has changed its ways between 2015 and now? …the IDF didn’t bomb and kill 4000 children in 2015. They are bombing children _now_. I’m not the person who bought child soldiers into the discussion. That would be _you_. If it’s relevant, then show the relevance. > [@Smapti](#): > > OK, here’s another source for the same information. > > [https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/horrible-things-unseen-impact-of-israelhamas-war-on-children/news-story/1c46459e99468c1491aec063cf8d6066](https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/horrible-things-unseen-impact-of-israelhamas-war-on-children/news-story/1c46459e99468c1491aec063cf8d6066) Again: do you think _all_ of the child deaths were Hamas footsoldiers, or that _some_ of the child deaths were Hamas footsoldiers, or we have no real way of knowing? I’m not arguing that child soldiers don’t exist. Especially in Gaza, where the borders have been closed, where they have nowhere else to go, when a ground invasion is happening, _where the median age is 18_. (as opposed to 28 in the rest of the world) > **[Page Not Found | ReliefWeb Response](https://response.reliefweb.int/404)** > > This page brings together locally, curated information for humanitarians to improve communication and collaboration during an emergency response. But I don’t see how relevant it is here. Unless you are claiming significant numbers of that 4000 were child soldiers, actively involved in hostilities. Is that your claim? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1390 "2023-11-07T04:16:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If we take those out of the equation, then that still leaves us with an estimated 4000 children dead. Is it your contention that all of those children were human shields, or some of those children, or we have no way of knowing? They were killed in IDF strikes on Hamas positions. If Hamas did not choose to operate out of densely populated urban centers on purpose in order to complicate strikes against them, those kids would still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1391 "2023-11-07T04:18:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > They were killed in IDF strikes on Hamas positions. …assertion with zero evidence. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1392 "2023-11-07T04:21:11Z")
Like I said. Echoes of the nuclear energy thread. You’ve made your mind up long ago, I’m done trying to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1393 "2023-11-07T04:33:19Z")
And again, “zero” evidence after we subtract out all the evidence about the three sites we discussed. When Banquet\_Bear says “zero” he means “you don’t have a detailed explanation for every single bomb, just for three of the most talked about sites”. That’s a very strange definition of “zero”. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1394 "2023-11-07T04:59:29Z")
> ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1395 "2023-11-07T06:48:23Z")
All that really demonstrates to me is that antisemitic people exist, especially when they’re not personally affected by anything? I think we already knew that it’s difficult to discuss this issue in an open forum for any significant time without actual racism joining in. ---
**Author:** ![nitter](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nitter/32/15360_2.png) [@nitter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nitter)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1396 "2023-11-07T07:31:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m talking about _specifics_. > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc) From 2012, Hamas summer camp began to be reported in Israel media, it’s a regular course for training young generation, based on its official telegram and Facebook channel, it includes ideology lectures, military training, and electronic simulations. In 2023, the newest official name is Jerusalem Shield camps (مخيمات درع القدس ). > **[مخيمات درع القدس 2023](https://t.me/der3quds)** > > القناة الرسمية لمخيمات درع القدس لصيف 2023 > **[مخيمات درع القدس \_ منطقة القرارة](https://www.facebook.com/people/%D9%85%D8%AE%D9%8A%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AF%D8%B1%D8%B9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B3-_-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%B7%D9%82%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9/100094097553980/)** > > ‎مخيمات درع القدس \_ منطقة القرارة‎. 66 likes. Recreation Spot > **[مخيمات درع القدس 2023](https://t.me/der3quds/590)** > > 🔶 صور اليوم الرابع | فعاليات المخيمات الصيفية "درع القدس" في منطقتي الدرج الشرقي والغربي شرق غزة، تخللها محاضرات وتدريبات عسكرية متنوعة والمحاكاة الإلكترونية . > > إعلام شـــرق غـــزة > **[مخيمات درع القدس 2023](https://t.me/der3quds/379)** > > 🔴 #صور | في يومها الثالث .. جانب من مخيمات درع القدس الصيفية للعام 2023م، في منطقة القرارة بخان يونس. According their posts, the camp located at Daraj and Al-Qarara. > **['I want my legs back': the child amputees of Gaza's war](https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2023/nov/04/i-want-my-legs-back-the-child-amputees-of-gazas-war-2630076.html)** > > Layan, her face and arms dotted with injuries, asks, "How will I return to school when my friends walk and I can't?" > “I want them to put my legs back, they can do it,” Baz says in desperation from her bed at Nasser’s paediatric ward. Every time she opens her eyes as the painkillers wear off, she sees her bandaged stumps. > > Her mother, Lamia al-Baz, 47, says Layan was wounded last week in **a strike on Al-Qarara** district of Khan Yunis, part of Israel’s unrelenting military campaign in response to bloody Hamas attacks on October 7 that Israeli officials say killed more than 1,400 people, most of them civilians. Any evidences about Hamas child scout probably died in the strike? Yes, there’s a strike on Al-Qarara. _all_ of the child deaths were Hamas footsoldiers? No. But if these little Hamas know the tunnel, I guess others is the ‘human shields’ [![](https://www.memri.org/sites/default/files/2023/SD1071228.jpg) ](https://www.memri.org/sites/default/files/2023/SD1071228.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1397 "2023-11-07T08:13:45Z")
> [@nitter](#): > > According their posts, the camp located at Daraj and Al-Qarara. > > ['I want my legs back': the child amputees of Gaza's war- The New Indian Express](https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2023/nov/04/i-want-my-legs-back-the-child-amputees-of-gazas-war-2630076.html) …I’m NOT clicking on a link to Telegram. That Youtube video was posted 10 years ago and I’ve seen scarier videos from Republican lawmakers and their families. As for the rest of your cites, I don’t know what I’m clicking on with any of them. I’m not clicking on the Telegram ones. The Facebook one just takes me to a random Facebook page. As for the final link: apparently Al-Qarara is a town with 29,004 people. Two daughters and two granddaughters were killed in their family home? And this has something to do with tunnels because you’ve randomly shown a picture of some kids down a tunnel? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1399 "2023-11-07T09:09:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think it’s an odd framing at all. What if Hamas had tunneled under a nearby settlement, was holding all the settlers at gunpoint to keep them there, and ALSO had a significant military operation underneath? I don’t think the IDF would just bomb 500 Israelis to get 20 important terrorists. Of course it wouldn’t. The IDF has a _duty_ to protect Israeli citizens. That’s the reason it exists in the first place. It does not have a duty to protect all the civilians in the world - it’s an army, not the Avengers. I don’t want Palestinians to die. But I don’t want to die either, and my life and those of my countrymen are more important to me. It’s not something I feel I should be ashamed of. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1400 "2023-11-07T16:04:05Z")
You’ll be shocked to hear that the IDF also sponsors summer camps for kids. [https://www.kapondefense.com/idfyouthsummercamp](https://www.kapondefense.com/idfyouthsummercamp) [https://findyoursummer.org/programs/chetz-vkeshet-cvk](https://findyoursummer.org/programs/chetz-vkeshet-cvk) And the US Department of Defense also runs a vigorous Junior ROTC program, with over 500,000 high school students participating nationwide. [https://www.usarmyjrotc.com/army-junior-rotc-program-overview/](https://www.usarmyjrotc.com/army-junior-rotc-program-overview/) ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1401 "2023-11-07T19:41:06Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > You’ll be shocked to hear that the IDF also sponsors summer camps for kids. > > And the US Department of Defense also runs a vigorous Junior ROTC program, with over 500,000 high school students. And in Germany there was an organization called the Hitler Youth. And all these groups are exactly the same, no difference at all. Obviously, Hamas only runs camps because kids need to have fun over the summer, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=66)