# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 66
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1402 "2023-11-07T21:38:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > He has been suspended from all further meetings. Thank goodness for small blessings and apparently Netanyahu has _some_ sense… but I still don’t like the folks in charge of Israel right now, or a lot of what they’re doing. > [@Babale](#): > > And if you’re Israel you want to deter your regional enemies from invading so you stay vague about if and when you mught introduce nukes to a conflict. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is this confirmation that Israel possesses nuclear weapons? My sense of it is everyone believes Israel has nukes (and I would be surprised if they didn’t) but Israel has never admitted to having them (which seems a bit weird since I thought the main use of having nukes is deterrence). See Wikipedia for the [Samson Option](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1403 "2023-11-07T21:50:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Second of all, put any discussion of “occupation” aside. Assume, for the moment, that Gaza is an independent state. Does one state have the right to blockade and besiege another independent state with which it is in a state of war? If so, how would such a blockage look different than the one Israel has placed on Gaza? Yes, but cutting off ALL food, water, and fuel which pretty much guarantees civilian suffering and death is not considered appropriate. That’s what they siege of Leningrad is remembered with such disgust and horror. This “complete siege” business pretty much guarantees mass suffering and death that isn’t hitting Hamas, it’s hitting civilians. > [@Babale](#): > > And why is it that the differences _just so happen_ to create a pemenant refugee group? Not all Palestinians are permanent refugees. I myself know of about a half dozen people people either directly Palestinian refugees under UNRWA’s definition or their descendants who are US citizens. Part of the reason that there are so many “permanent” Palestinian refugees is that so few countries are willing to accept them, or willing to let them immigrate in numbers significant to decrease the refugee numbers. I don’t harbor any illusions that ALL of them would want to go elsewhere in the world, but part of the intractable problem here is that even the Palestinians who _want_ to leave the conflict area aren’t allowed to do so. They’re largely trapped there. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1404 "2023-11-08T00:39:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, but cutting off ALL food, water, and fuel which pretty much guarantees civilian suffering and death is not considered appropriate. I’ll warrant that hamas has plenty of food, water and drugs. We know they have plenty of fuel they aren’t sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1405 "2023-11-08T00:58:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’ll warrant that hamas has plenty of food, water and drugs. …certainly not enough to feed 2.5 million people. Certainly not enough to distribute through Gaza without getting bombed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1406 "2023-11-08T01:00:42Z")
Hamas is only a small minority of the 2 million + people in Gaza. And they aren’t sharing. The only thing the blockade is doing is starving 2 million civilians of food and water. So… to kill about 20,000 people who are well supplied and in tunnels the IDF is systematically depriving 2,000,000 people of the very necessities of life. There is nothing just or right about that. It’s vicious and cruel. It won’t stop Hamas, who clearly care nothing for human life. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1407 "2023-11-08T01:10:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Hamas is only a small minority of the 2 million + people in Gaza. And they aren’t sharing. The only thing the blockade is doing is starving 2 million civilians of food and water. > > So… to kill about 20,000 people who are well supplied and in tunnels the IDF is systematically depriving 2,000,000 people of the very necessities of life. Which suggests 1,980,000 people are letting 20,000 deprive them of food and water. Not to mention, one would presume those 20,000 have family among the 1,980,000 they are willing to let starve. I am not sure about the math here. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1408 "2023-11-08T01:24:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… to kill about 20,000 people who are well supplied and in tunnels the IDF is systematically depriving 2,000,000 people of the very necessities of life. There is nothing just or right about that. It’s vicious and cruel. It won’t stop Hamas, who clearly care nothing for human life. This is true, if hamas is well supplied, why not let supplies through for the innocent? Perhaps the Israelis believe this will encourage them to leave Gaza, and put pressure on the Egyptians to let them out. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1409 "2023-11-08T01:42:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Which suggests 1,980,000 people are letting 20,000 deprive them of food and water. …it doesn’t suggest that at all. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps the Israelis believe this will encourage them to leave Gaza And people won’t leave Gaza, because they know if they do they won’t be allowed to return. “Encouraging civilians to leave Gaza” would be a thing called ethnic cleansing. If this is the goal of the siege, and one hopes that it certainly isn’t, then it needs to be ended _now_. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1416 "2023-11-08T05:11:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > He has been suspended from all further meetings. > > Thank goodness for small blessings and apparently Netanyahu has _some_ sense… but I still don’t like the folks in charge of Israel right now, or a lot of what they’re doing. > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > And if you’re Israel you want to deter your regional enemies from invading so you stay vague about if and when you mught introduce nukes to a conflict. > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > Is this confirmation that Israel possesses nuclear weapons? My sense of it is everyone believes Israel has nukes (and I would be surprised if they didn’t) but Israel has never admitted to having them (which seems a bit weird since I thought the main use of having nukes is deterrence). > > See Wikipedia for the [Samson Option](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option) This seems to be related to the good old “madman theory” > **[Madman theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory)** > > The madman theory is a political theory commonly associated with United States President Richard Nixon's foreign policy. Nixon and his administration tried to make the leaders of hostile Communist Bloc nations think he was irrational and volatile. According to the theory, those leaders would then avoid provoking the United States, fearing an unpredictable American response. > Some international relations scholars have been skeptical of madman theory as a strategy for success in bargaining. One st... We can also see that the threat of an overwhelming response did not stop the October massacre, so the madman strategy evidently does not apply to non-nuclear and especially this kind of asymmetric warfare. The essence of deterrence is that the threats (e.g., of nuclear armageddon) are absolutely real, though, which is one way to understand why Gaza City has been destroyed, ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1425 "2023-11-08T13:43:57Z")
Seems odd that with sophisticated underground facilities available, the Hamas commanders would be perched in a well known and targeted hospital waiting to receive Israeli missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1426 "2023-11-08T13:50:52Z")
They’re not. They’re perched in sophisticated underground facilities _directly beneath_ a well known and targeted hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1427 "2023-11-08T14:01:01Z")
I don’t doubt such a thing exists because of it’s central location and access to resources. But it would have limited use in a conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1428 "2023-11-08T14:01:03Z")
Evacuations have begun through IDF secured corridors. Of course, Hamas continues to discourage Gaza City residents from leaving and request that they remain in their homes: > ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1429 "2023-11-08T14:10:00Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Evacuations have begun through IDF secured corridors. …the tweet calls it an exodus. Which some might consider more accurate than “evacuation.” And the Tweet doesn’t say anything about Hamas. I’m sure they might be discouraging some Gaza residents from leaving. But _nowhere_ in Gaza is safe from IDF bombing. They are being forced from their homes into an unknown situation, potentially a more dangerous situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1430 "2023-11-08T14:12:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the Tweet doesn’t say anything about Hamas. It’s stated here: > Would you rather they stayed? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1431 "2023-11-08T14:21:16Z")
The civilian population remaining in place supports the Hamas defense strategy. And it may be in the best interest of some. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1432 "2023-11-08T14:31:43Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > It’s stated here: > > [https://twitter.com/gaza\_report/status/1721879537045094574](https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1721879537045094574) …and considering what could happen if they left, urging them to remain home isn’t entirely a silly idea. > **[Photos: Palestinians fleeing to Khan Younis still face Israeli air attacks](https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/14/palestinians-who-fled-to-khan-younis-still-under-israeli-airstrikes)** > > Thousands of Palestinians are fleeing south after Israel warned them to evacuate – but it then bombarded southern Gaza. Stay at home and shelter, or take a risk on the open road, not knowing what will happen at the other end? Its a _cruel_ choice. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1433 "2023-11-08T21:59:58Z")
On a totally different level, here’s my miscellaneous and personal thought for the day. I accompanied my sister to a follow-up doctor’s appointment for some lesions in her liver. (Great news, they are benign and she can ignore them.) I went to her initial appointment, too. And what i remembered about the doctor is that he was relatively young, and seemed intelligent and very engaged. This time, i noticed that his name is Mohammed, and he looks like an Arab. And we both look pretty Jewish. And it occurred to me to worry that there might be some political awkwardness. And in fact, in addition to that guy, we saw a resident (also probably an Arab) and a young man came in to “observe”. My sister asked if he was a fourth year medical student. No, it’s complicated. He’s from Jordan… Well, he’s Iranian, but lives in Jordan… My sister, who has better social skills than i do, looked at him and said, “i hope your relatives are okay”. He thanked her for her concern, and we went back to talking about medicine. Anyway, war sucks even if you are really far away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1434 "2023-11-09T14:51:50Z")
The PBS show Frontline produced an almost two hour overview of the history (since the 1990’s) between Israel and Palestine. It is long but a worthwhile watch I think. (Posted two weeks ago) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jt3PpqaLfxo/maxresdefault.jpg "Shattered Dreams of Peace | Israeli-Palestinian Relations After Oslo (full documentary) | FRONTLINE") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3PpqaLfxo) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1435 "2023-11-09T15:23:19Z")
While I greatly sympathize with the tragedies Israelis suffered last month, the idea that we we can just trust the IDF to do the right thing and accurately report what’s happening without skepticism is not credible. Especially when they’re saying things like this (that there’s no humanitarian crisis in Gaza): > Combine this with the continued brutality and murder in the West Bank, and the decades of discriminatory policy, and it’s quite reasonable to be skeptical that this Israeli government can actually accomplish its goals in Gaza. Until Netanyahu steps down, nothing is likely to be accomplished long term, IMO. And potentially even worse, Israel’s security may degrade (because humanitarian crises are likely to produce more terrorists) while civilians continue to suffer and die. This isn’t to say Hamas shouldn’t be removed - they should. But I’m very skeptical that this Israeli government, which has shown no likelihood so far of a path to peace afterwards, can remove Hamas without creating more problems for Israel and the region in the process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=65) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=67)