# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1478 "2023-11-12T13:46:07Z")
**Moderator Warning** > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Mahmoud is called on two separate occasions… You were thread-banned here: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > @Walken_After_Midnight, after discussion with other mods, i am banning you from this thread. I know this is a highly emotional topic, but it remains against the rules to insult and attack other posters outside of the pit. This is an official warning for disobeying moderator instructions. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1479 "2023-11-12T16:41:17Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > (paraphrasing:) “You need tell everyone in the neighborhood to leave their homes because we are going to bomb them. Did you see how Hamas slaughtered those children with knives?” (paraphrasing again; and I will note we don’t have the actual quote, we have the called person’s recollection of the sense of the call) “We are going to bomb these homes because we need to get Hamas. We need to get Hamas because they are committing evil acts. Did you see how they slaughtered those children?” Again – I don’t know whether Israel is doing the least bad thing. And they may be doing so in some instances and not others. But concluding that Israel overall is making no attempt to protect civilian life based on a report of someone’s recollection of a phone call, or on an assumption of the state of mind of someone making a phone call even if we had the actual words, strikes me as a considerable overreach. > [@scabpicker](#): > > it would have been better if the caller had replied “It doesn’t matter what the target is, it has been decided that it will be bombed, and you and I cannot change that. We can change how many civilians will die, though.” > > But they didn’t give that answer. From the article quoted: > “It is an order from people bigger than me and you, and we have an order to bomb,” the voice added, according to Mahmoud. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1480 "2023-11-13T00:35:04Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > strikes me as a considerable overreach. …doesn’t that call seem to you to be…extraordinarily cruel? Imagine you hate Hamas. But you get a phone-call from the IDF that tells you they are going to destroy _everything you own_. Potentially kill you and everybody that is close to you. Your neighbours. Your neighbourhood. Your possessions. “We are gonna blow up your house…[do you condemn Hamas](https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/stop-asking-everyone-to-condemn-hamas,18005)?” It’s _trolling_. It’s deliberately cruel. This isn’t a “good news story.” Because currently there are 4500 children dead as a result of the IDF campaign. If there was a phone call in every instance, there wouldn’t be so many dead children. They do it enough for propagandistic purposes. But not enough to save a significant number of lives. And I think that its important that everyone here understands this: from today, those numbers will _no longer be updated_. Israel _doesn’t_ track the number of civilian casualties. And the place that was tracking the numbers has gone dark. From Doctors Without Borders: > [@DWB](#): > > Hospitals in Gaza have been under relentless bombardment over the past 24 hours. Al-Shifa Hospital complex, the biggest health facility where staff for Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontiéres (MSF) are still working, has been hit several times, including the maternity and outpatient departments, resulting in multiple deaths and injuries. > > … > > “We are being killed here, please do something," texted one of MSF’s nurses from the basement of Al-Shifa Hospital this morning, where he and his family were sheltering from the incessant bombing. “Four or five families are sheltering now in the basement, the shelling is so close, my kids are crying and screaming in fear.” > > … > > Despite regular attacks and shortages, the staff has managed to keep the hospital operational. Yesterday, Al-Shifa Hospital lost electrical power. The ambulances can no longer move to collect the injured, and non-stop bombardment prevents patients and staff from evacuating. At the time of this writing, our staff are witnessing people being shot at as they attempt to flee the hospital. > > “There are a lot of patients already operated on and they cannot walk,” said Dr. Mohammed Obeid, MSF surgeon at Al-Shifa Hospital. "They cannot evacuate. We need an ambulance to move them, we don’t have ambulances to evacuate all of these patients.” > **[URGENT: Patients and medical staff trapped in hospitals under fire in Gaza](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/urgent-patients-and-medical-staff-trapped-hospitals-under-fire-gaza)** > > Attacks must stop now. Hospital staff have been forced to leave at least 100 bodies decomposing in hospital grounds. Staff watch as stray dogs tear at the bodies. They’ve run out of clean water after storage tanks were struck. Blood supplies have spoiled. Premature babies huddled together, eight to a bed, the only possible way to keep them warm and alive. Some of the recent posts in this thread have almost been _clinical_. But this isn’t a clinical war. It is brutal. And it isn’t brutal because “Hamas headquarters are located underneath hospitals and dense residential neighborhoods.” Its brutal because the people that are waging this war are making no real effort to distinguish between the innocent and Hamas. Al-Shifa is the hosptial that many people in this thread, as well as the IDF, have _claimed_ has a military installation in it/below it _without any evidence._ And Al-Shifa was where the numbers were compiled. Not only has the hospital gone dark, but our only insight into the devastating toll this war is having on the Palestinian people has gone dark as well. No, we are not on the same page here. Because we are witnessing what many in the international community consider to be _war crimes_, committed by the IDF, on a massive scale. The siege, that continues to this day, is collective punishment. Palestinians that have been forced from their homes are calling this the second [Nakba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba). And I don’t think they get to do that and be “surprised” that people are no longer on your team. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1481 "2023-11-13T00:53:25Z")
It seems odd that they have no room to keep the bodies away from stray dogs. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1482 "2023-11-13T01:03:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “We are gonna blow up your house…[do you condemn Hamas](https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/stop-asking-everyone-to-condemn-hamas,18005)?” It’s _trolling_. It’s deliberately cruel. Not at all how my reading was meant. I read a cry of pain, asking for understanding – ‘we have to do this! did you see what Hamas did to those children?’; which, quite understandably, wasn’t heard through the cry of pain coming the other way. I very much agree that this isn’t a “good news story”. But I really do think that you’re seeing deliberate cruelty when it probably wasn’t there. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Al-Shifa is the hosptial that many people in this thread, as well as the IDF, have _claimed_ has a military installation in it/below it _without any evidence._ If the IDF really has no evidence for a military installation in or below the hospital: then I agree that they certainly shouldn’t be attacking it. But the fact that neither you nor I is privy to the military intelligence available to the Israeli armed forces does not mean that the IDF has no evidence. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It seems odd that they have no room to keep the bodies away from stray dogs. They might have no place to put bodies that’s both away from stray dogs and not currently full of live people. Or they might be afraid to go get the bodies, if there’s active shelling outside. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1483 "2023-11-13T01:03:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It seems odd that they have no room to keep the bodies away from stray dogs. …its because they don’t want to get shot by IDF snipers. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1484 "2023-11-13T01:10:59Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > ‘we have to do this! did you see what Hamas did to those children?’; …but they didn’t have to do this. They didn’t have to blow up the neighbourhood. Its gaslighting. “They have forced our hand! They are forcing me to push this button that will destroy everything you love and cherish!” > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If the IDF really has no evidence for a military installation in or below the hospital: then I agree that they certainly shouldn’t be attacking it. If the IDF had evidence they would have presented it to the United Nations a couple of days ago when they had every opportunity to do so. Because attacking a hospital is a _war crime_. If Al-Shifa is a legitimate target: then the correct thing is to provide evidence that shows Al-Shifa is a legitimate target. It isn’t to surround it with tanks and snipers for two days, shooting at people when they try to leave, occasionally drop a bomb, then “magically” find evidence of a military installation when they finally take it over in a couple of days time. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But the fact that neither you nor I is privy to the military intelligence available to the Israeli armed forces does not mean that the IDF has no evidence. If they choose not to release the intelligence, I have no qualms in calling what they’ve done to EVERY hospital in Gaza over the last couple of days a _war crime._ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1485 "2023-11-13T01:15:50Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If the IDF really has no evidence for a military installation in or below the hospital: then I agree that they certainly shouldn’t be attacking it. But the fact that neither you nor I is privy to the military intelligence available to the Israeli armed forces does not mean that the IDF has no evidence. FWIW the EU has condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields. Does the EU know something or just political rhetoric? (I do not know) Full Title: **EU condemns Hamas for using ‘hospitals as human shields’, urges Israeli restraint** > **[EU condemns Hamas for using 'hospitals as human shields', urges Israeli...](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/eu-condemns-hamas-using-hospitals-human-shields-urges-israeli-restraint-2023-11-12/)** > > The European Union on Sunday condemned Hamas for using "hospitals and civilians as human shields" in Gaza, while also urging Israel to show "maximum restraint" to protect civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1486 "2023-11-13T01:16:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t to surround it with tanks and snipers for two days, shooting at people when they try to leave, occasionally drop a bomb, then “magically” find evidence of a military installation when they finally take it over in a couple of days time. So let me understand your view of the situation. You think that Al-Shifa is _not_ on top of a military target, that it just has doctors and sick kids inside and no Hamas tunnels underneath, and that the IDF has surrounded it and is bombing it and taking potshots at doctors just for fun, or because they want to kill all the Palestinians, or you tell me why; and in fact there are no Hamas forces there and the IDF could walk in at any time? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1487 "2023-11-13T01:19:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You think that Al-Shifa is _not_ a military target, …it isn’t my job to make the case for why Al-Shifa is a legitimate military target. And if the IDF don’t want to present the evidence they have, then what they are doing is indisputably a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1488 "2023-11-13T01:21:41Z")
OK, just clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1489 "2023-11-13T01:54:38Z")
[Thousands rally across Boston and Cambridge for peace in Gaza](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/11/12/metro/thousands-rally-across-boston-cambridge-peace-gaza/) > Thousands of pro-Palestinian demonstrators shut down city streets Sunday afternoon as they marched from the steps of the Boston Public Library across the river to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, calling for a cease-fire in Gaza and the end of US aid to Israel. > > They were military veterans, teachers, LGBTQ+ people, Jews, Muslims, Indigenous Americans, Asian Americans, and Black people. A few had green or pink hair. Some wore face masks; many were swathed in traditional patterned scarves, or keffiyeh. A few women donned Arabic dress. One man sported a President Biden mask and carried a baby doll that looked like it had been smeared in fake blood. > […] ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1490 "2023-11-13T02:16:15Z")
[[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDp0XZsiOew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDp0XZsiOew)]([https://Hundreds](https://Hundreds) rally in Boston in support of Palestinians) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1491 "2023-11-13T03:10:33Z")
Odd title, looking at the crowd, I’d guess a few thousand. I also heard from a guy i know on-line who attended a large rally in London. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1492 "2023-11-13T03:30:45Z")
Here’s how it becomes a regional war… > **[U.S. Carries Out Another Round of Airstrikes on Targets Tied to Iran](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/us/politics/us-airstrikes-syria.html?unlocked_article_code=1.-Ew.0W6s.sBE_R5OZoJ8H&smid=url-share)** > > Airstrikes hit two facilities in eastern Syria, most likely killing or injuring Iran-backed militia personnel. The U.S. has blamed such groups for recent attacks against American troops. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1493 "2023-11-13T09:15:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it isn’t my job to make the case for why Al-Shifa is a legitimate military target. And if the IDF don’t want to present the evidence they have, then what they are doing is indisputably a war crime. And it’s not the IDF’s job to make the case to you, either. They’re not going to compromise operational security and risk the lives of its own troops just to make a political point. That’s how Hamas operates, not Israel. That said, here’s the IDF’s own website on the matter: [https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-articles-videos-and-more/general-articles/mris-and-rpgs-hamas-positions-headquarters-under-gaza-s-shifa-hospital/](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-articles-videos-and-more/general-articles/mris-and-rpgs-hamas-positions-headquarters-under-gaza-s-shifa-hospital/) Feel free not to believe them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1494 "2023-11-13T09:54:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Feel free not to believe them. …oh trust me: I don’t believe a _word_ of that. The only thing that comes close to “evidence” is a reference to 2008, which, I’m going to assume references this. > **[Human rights groups plead for protection for hospital patients in Gaza](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1906608/)** 15 years ago. And not evidence of a “military installation.” As I said: the IDF want to openly target hospitals based on 15 year-old information and “super-secret-intelligence” that they won’t share with us, that’s fine. But we get to call it what it is: _A war crime_. I think everyone should visit the cite Alessan has just provided to see just how _flimsy_ the case that Al-Shifa is a legitimate target is. Then look at the desperate pleas from Doctors Without Borders, from the World Health Organization, over the last couple of days for Israel to stop their assault. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1495 "2023-11-13T09:55:02Z")
See, this is why I’ve been avoiding this thread and others like it - it’s the frustration. _Everyone_ knows that Hamas has its headquarters under al-Shifa hospital. It’s been common knowledge for the past 15 years. The fact that people are coming here and arguing about it… ugh. It’s like climate change all over again. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1496 "2023-11-13T11:43:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As I said: the IDF want to openly target hospitals based on 15 year-old information and “super-secret-intelligence” that they won’t share with us, that’s fine. But we get to call it what it is: _A war crime_. Whether or not it’s a war crime depends on what military installations actually are underneath it, not on how strong a case the IDF makes to the public. Whether you believe it’s a war crime depends on whether you believe their case, of course. Fwiw, i _have_ read what doctors without borders says. I’m a donor, and they send me updates like that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1497 "2023-11-13T12:17:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Whether or not it’s a war crime depends on what military installations actually are underneath it, not on how strong a case the IDF makes to the public. …no. You don’t get to make the case that a hospital is a legitimate target _after_ you’ve laid siege, bombed it, killed and wounded people. They’ve had _weeks_ to make the case. The UN ambassador spoke to the assembly just a few days ago and spent most of his time lambasting UN and humanitarian agencies. The very least he could have done was pulled a Colin Powell. Because the thing is: Israel’s case here is even _flimsier_ than this. > **[User Clip: Colin Powell UN presentation WMD trucks CGI](https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5002440%2Fuser-clip-colin-powell-presentation-wmd-trucks-cgi)** > > US Secretary of State Colin Powell speaking before the United Nations and showing a CGI slide show of alleged WMD trucks And we aren’t just talking about Al-Shifa. 21 hospitals in Gaza are out of service. No fuel. No food. No water. No medicine. Do they all have military installations under them? Because even if they did, that still isn’t enough to make them a legitimate target. Not according to the conventions. The standard is _higher_ than that. I don’t say any of this lightly. Because I don’t think we should be taking any of this lightly. If you are going to lay siege to a hospital, the standard needs to be higher than “it’s been common knowledge for the past 15 years.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=70)