# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 77
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1639 "2023-11-15T02:51:52Z")
…if you are going to cut off access to hospitals to food, water, fuel, and allow premature babies to just die, I think we need to rely on something a bit more than _trust_. But trust is the only option we’ve been given. I don’t trust Hamas. I do trust the doctors and nurses, both the Palestinians who are risking their lives and the international medical care workers who are along side them, who have not stopped working since the start of the siege, who have been making impossible decisions for weeks, who have worked around the clock to try to keep people alive. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1640 "2023-11-15T03:00:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I do trust the doctors and nurses, both the Palestinians who are risking their lives and the international medical care workers who are along side them, who have not stopped working since the start of the siege, who have been making impossible decisions for weeks, who have worked around the clock to try to keep people alive. Have these people swept the place for Hamas militants? If they knew there were Hamas militants staged behind the fucking incubators, would they tell you that? You have no way of knowing reliably what is going on. That you choose to believe one side (while strenuously denying that you do) and categorically disbelieve the other side, is pretty telling. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1641 "2023-11-15T03:12:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I hope you’re not suggesting anyone use nukes in this conflict. > > Alright - there isn’t evidence _conventional_ bombs will cause a population to submit. And yet it’s tried over and over. I’d say we bombed both Germany and Japan into submission. By the time the Russians entered Berlin it was a smoldering ruin. The bombing of Tokyo was as bad or worse than the atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Yes the reality of nuclear bombs accelerated the process but Japan was getting chewed up with no end in sight either way. If Hamas and the cultural infrastructure supporting it aren’t dismantled then this will repeat until it is dismantled. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1642 "2023-11-15T03:18:40Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Have these people swept the place for Hamas militants? If they knew there were Hamas militants staged behind the fucking incubators, would they tell you that? …I very strongly suspect, and please, by all means, feel free to correct me here, but ths hospital workers are too busy saving lives to be concerned about “sweeping the hospital.” But all of the international humanitarian aid agencies have been in regular contact with the people in the hospitals when they can, up until the start of the hospital siege a few days ago. And the humanitarian aid agencies have no qualms in calling out either side in the conflict. And there isn’t even a _hint_ of what you suggest of going on. What the aid agencies are telling us, almost uniformly, is that their people are working alongside the Palestinians in a desperate attempt to keep people alive. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > You have no way of knowing reliably what is going on. That you choose to believe one side (while strenuously denying that you do) and categorically disbelieve the other side, is pretty telling. There are three sides to the conflict in Gaza. You’ve got the IDF. You’ve got Hamas. And you’ve got the people in between. You can go read what the doctors from Doctors without Borders have reported. I’m listening to the humanitarian agencies who are talking to the people that are stuck in the middle. I’m not _siding with Hamas_. An estimated 12,000 people have died in Gaza. An estimated 5000 children. It is still under siege. No food, no water, no fuel. Most of the hospitals out of action. 1.7 million people displaced according to Israeli numbers. And yet: the conversation here today was largely about “bombing them into submission.” I think that’s _abhorrent_. And I wish people were as angry at those that have tabled those suggestions as they are angry at me. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1643 "2023-11-15T03:25:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the humanitarian aid agencies have no qualms in calling out either side in the conflict. And there isn’t even a _hint_ of what you suggest of going on. Huh? I showed two HUGE governments with exceptional intelligence apparatus that said Hamas was hiding in hospitals. You chose to ignore that. Not to mention, it is Insurgency-101 to hide among the populace and especially in places like hospitals and schools. This is nothing new. Insurgents simply cannot face-off in battle against military powers like the IDF. The very base of how they work is to blend into the local population so the powerful militaries do not have an easy target and get people to complain when the local populace gets hurt. This is page-1 in the insurgent playbook. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1644 "2023-11-15T03:36:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? I showed two HUGE governments with exceptional intelligence apparatus that said Hamas was hiding in hospitals. …can you explain what “exceptional intelligence” means? Is that some sort of objective metric? How well was this “exceptional intelligence” prior to 9/11, or on October 7th? Or on WMD’s? How do you measure it? How do we independently verify it? I won’t ignore any evidence. Feel free to present it. But the testimony of people working at the hospitals _now_ doesn’t support it. And those testimonies are _evidence_. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not to mention, it is Insurgency-101 to hide among the populace and especially in places like hospitals and schools. This just _isn’t good enough_. “Insurgency-101” isn’t a real thing. Even if they are “hiding among the populace” there are still obligations on the part of the occupying power, and one of those obligations is not to cut off food, water and power. And “hiding” isn’t enough to remove protected status from a hospital. This is explicit in the conventions. If you think that the conventions should just be ignored, then thats _fine_. You aren’t the first to say that in this thread. But if you are fine with Israel being able to ignore the conventions, then everyone else should be allowed to as well. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1645 "2023-11-15T04:21:41Z")
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**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1646 "2023-11-15T04:27:31Z")
temporarily closed, will reopen after moderation note is posted ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1647 "2023-11-15T04:41:34Z")
Moderating: First: This whole discussion as to whether Israel is intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians (as distinct from killing civilians who happen to be near military targets) and the closely related topic of whether Israel’s attack on hospitals is proportional to whatever military target might be in, near, or under the hospitals, belongs in the pit. While I recognize that this is a central question to discussing the war, I don’t believe that it can be discussed by people who care deeply and passionately for either side while following the rules of MPSIMS. So please stop discussing it in this thread. That means everyone. You may discuss it in the linked thread (or some other pit thread, I suppose): [Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/197) Second: > [@Babale](#): > > your blood libel claim that the IDF is hitting civilian targets with no Hamas presence just to kill civilians and drive Palestinians out of Gaza. This is attacking a poster. @Babale , you are banned from this thread until further notice. I am going to discuss this with the other mods tomorrow (it’s night time for most of the mods right now) and there will be an update on this after the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1648 "2023-11-15T04:41:52Z")
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**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1649 "2023-11-15T09:19:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is all true, but the major point you are missing is that peace is impossible with Hamas, as they have proven on Oct 7. Oh, I get that. Hamas is one of the cancers that must be removed to allow civilization to live. I question if the IDF is going about it in the best way given the inevitable collateral damage. On the other hand, I don’t have a better answer, either. Still - when the dust settles the only road to peace is through swallowing down the need for revenge. Some will always be unwilling to do that, just as some have been trying to do it for decades now. > [@Babale](#): > > It is _also_ true that Netanyahu and others in his party have brought this situation about. Netanyahu’s disastrous policies, mostly designed with no coherent ideological basis on the left _or_ right and only intended to keep Netanyahu in power (and out of prison), have brought us here. Netanyahu is dancing on the graves of both Rabin _and_ Sharon, difficult as that may seem to accomplish. And there _will_ be a reckoning there. I fear that there won’t be a reckoning because so often there isn’t and men like Netanyahu seem to so often die in bed still surrounded by power and luxury. I would be delighted to be wrong. > [@Babale](#): > > _Now that Netanyahu has brought us here_, we need to undo the damage, and that means destroying Hamas, which has taken such deep root in Gaza under Bibi’s watch. It also means throwing the messianics and the warmongers and the settlers out of power and changing the disastrous policies that brought us here Agreed. > [@chappachula](#): > > In the “moderate” areas of the west bank under control of Abbas, all the elementary schools are named in honor of “martyrs” who blew up school busses full of Israeli children or similiar terrorist acts. > > For comparison…in America now there is a trend to remove from schools the names of evil people (slaveholders, Robert E, Lee), Gee, it only took America a century and a half to get to that point. I have no illusions that any form of peace is going to paper over the cracks between groups in that part of the world. A lasting peace, a truly lasting peace, is work that’s going to take generations. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israel will never have security without peace. And peace will require partners who want peace on both sides. ^ This. > [@chappachula](#): > > The best we can hope for is that the massive destruction in Gaza will force them to restrain their war-like culture. Is this like “the beatings will continue until morale improves”? I grew up in a heavily Arab/Muslim part of the US. I’ve known and interacted with Palestinians during my lifetime. Because of this I know that they are not all rabid, fire-breathing haters lusting to kill. Quite a few of them now living in this country are glad to be away from the killing and violence. Of course, it doesn’t help prospects for peace in the Middle East if those who want peace emigrate to other countries, leaving the rabid behind. While acknowledging that the current war is necessary (even if I am appalled by some of the methods) continuing to tighten the screws down ever tighter on Palestine and Gaza is not going to moderate anyone’s position. Yet Israelis are going to do what they feel they have to do to defend themselves. > [@chappachula](#): > > The previous 8 wars had taught them that the amount of damage Israel would do in response to missile attacks from Gaza was a price they were happy to pay. > Now in this war, the price is higher. But is it still one they’re willing to pay? I’m pretty sure some of them see no price as too high and that’s a tough crowd to deal with. Meanwhile, the people who are willing to consider peace are caught in the crossfire. Hamas is happy to see those who they’d consider appeasers and traitors die horribly, and in that sense they’re entirely on board with Israel bombing hospitals, schools, mosques, etc. - that’s exactly why they set up their hidey-holes in such places. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > You say that speaking of peace is absolutely impossible. Well, it is absolutely impossible for me to support your endless war. ^ This. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > You will never, ever, ever bomb someone into having a less “war-like culture”, whatever that phrase means. It doesn’t happen. > > What about the Japanese empire? They were threatened by Russian joining the war as well as being bombed, but they are Nice Guys and allies now. We burned people alive for months with napalm and bombs generating firestorms in cities then capped it off with two atomic bombs. Is that what you want to see happen in Gaza? Because, sure, Israel is headed in that direction with the way they’re seemingly blowing up every building in Gaza. I’d prefer NOT to re-run WWII. I don’t think most Israelis want to either. Positive most Palestinians don’t. But - and this is important - the rebuilding involved a genuine rebuilding to make Japan a sovereign and functional state again. Not continual punishment. The US sank a lot of money and effort into rebuilding Japan. Don’t fool yourself - after the surrender the Japanese did not welcome the Americans with open arms. It took a generation of hard work to rebuild that nation and there are still people there who deeply, deeply resent the changes imposed. That’s why people are asking what the plans are after Israel decapitates Hamas in Gaza. Bibi says he doesn’t want to get involved, he doesn’t want to administer the ruins. Then who will? The US took responsibility for destroying Japan and bringing it to its knees. We provided medical care to bombing victims. We provided fuel so they could keep warm in winter. _We fed the country for years to keep it from starving_ because we’d caused so much destruction Japan couldn’t feed itself. We didn’t abandon Japan. That effort - which cost us money and was far from universally popular back in the US - is why the US and Japan are allies these days. Yet Israel’s current government are saying they aren’t going to do jack after they are finished destroying Gaza. They plan to walk away from the rubble and ruin even as those trapped underneath are still crying out for rescue. That will not win Israel any friends. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1650 "2023-11-15T09:59:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@orcenio](#): > > > > Honestly. Once “unconditional surrender” is achieved what is the plan? What is in store for Gazans? The aftermath is where peace is truly won… So what happens? > > Something like the Marshal Plan. I agree that would be the wisest course but Netanyahu is on record that he wants nothing to do with Gaza after he’s finished destroying it, he wants it to be someone else’s problem. The Marshall Plan and rebuilding Japan are what I mean by breaking the cycle of revenge. Instead of further punishing the nations that started WWII the Allies rebuilt them, genuinely rebuilt them. That requires involvement after the shooting and bombing stops, it requires money and effort, and it requires giving a damn about human beings, being humane even to your enemies. I don’t think Netanyahu & Company are capable of that. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …all of this talk of “bombing them into submission” is making me rather ill. Because what we are actually talking about is mostly bombing innocent people. Yes. Exactly. That is why war is hell. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. @Babale is much more persuaded than I am that IDF is doing the best they can by civilians (if I’m understanding correctly), but post-war, I definitely want folks like @Babale in charge on Israel’s side. Me, too. > [@SunUp](#): > > If that thesis is correct, then for Israel to accomplish a lasting “destruction of Hamas” they will need to be thinking in terms of what they need the first day after the military campaign will look lke - and what things they need to do _now_ to help bring that about. Just the shock of wiping out Hamas in Gaza won’t do it - they’ll need to find the people who they can work with, who will recognize (even endorse) Israel’s right to exist but fight like hell for the interests of the Palestinian people, and they’ll need to ensure that they, not the next proto-Hamas, are who the Gazans look to for their future. ^ This. And yet Netanyahu doesn’t want to do the hard work required. He wants to smash Gaza then walk away. > [@Babale](#): > > I’ve repeatedly said that the settlements are a cancer on Israeli society, that they are one of the biggest dangers to the nation, and that we must evict the settlers as part of a peace process (and ideally as a necesaary step leading to that process rather than as a concession, though this is less realistic politically speaking). I just want to say I get your frustration @Babale - it reminds me of the years when my nation’s government was busy killing a third of a million Iraqis and I had to keep saying that I had been opposed to that war built on lies from the beginning. It’s frustrating on a level that’s hard to understand unless you’ve been there. I can’t change the reality, but I do understand your frustration, if that understanding is worth anything. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think, just like the 1948 displacement, hundreds of thousands of people will choose to leave. When the only options are to either leave or to die I’m not sure the word “choice” enters into it. I’m a child of refugees who had to flee halfway around the world to survive, when they spoke of it they didn’t describe that as a “choice”. The fact that they were able to survive and even thrive in their new home in no way erased the trauma of that forced move. > [@cmkeller](#): > > It’s a peace platitude by starry-eyed pacifists who see an equivalency in all violence and therefore think of the victim hitting back at the initial aggressor as “revenge.” That’s not at all what I meant but by all means keep interpreting what I say incorrectly if that’s you doing you. I have pointed out that the Marshall Plan and rebuilding Japan are both examples of breaking the cycle of revenge. That’s why Europe has been mostly peaceful for the better part of a century instead of racked by tit-for-tat wars like most of its history. That’s why Japan and the US are allies these days. Something was learned from the Treaty of Versailles and its long-term failure. Continuing to punish the losers after a ware just generates more war. At some point you have to break the cycle which is hard and it’s painful to many but it’s the only way to end an endless war. > [@cmkeller](#): > > If the aggressor is not rendered incapable of continued acts of aggression, said aggressor will continue to victimize the original victim (if said victim had survived) and others. Inaction on the part of the original victim (or those who reasonably expect to become the next victims) does not serve the purpose of decreasing violence, it means that there will be more violence, and they will suffer its effects. If the defender then becomes the aggressor in turn then you just perpetuate violence. What happens after the shooting stops matters. At some point someone has to stop the aggression. > [@Babale](#): > > To be clear, aid _is_ coming in; the pace and quantity should continue to increase as the IDF gains control over the Gaza strip. How that plays out is crucial to what happens in the future. A Marshall Plan for Gaza is desperately needed. I don’t trust Netanyahu and his followers to do that. > [@Babale](#): > > It’s part of the “let’s you and him fight” attitude towards the conflict I’ve called out on the American right. It certainly isn’t the attitude of the IDF. The American right is full of religious fanatics who are salivating in hopes this signals the start of their end-times myth, in which the destruction of Israel plays a very important part. They are not your friends. > [@Babale](#): > > Occupation of Gaza by Israel for some length of time will be necessary, but the goal should definitely not be a prolonged occupation of Gaza by Israel, which would be disastrous. The best case scenario for an interim government would be if it was run by a coalition of other Arab states, as I think this would help with legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinian people, which is crucial here; but I also doubt that any Arab states would want to entangle themselves with this situation. But an Israeli occupation or an Israeli backed interim government is probably not practical because anything too closely associated with Israel will undoubtedly be rejected. In that case no one is willing to get off the merry-go-round. I think it’s in part because other Arab states are happy to have the Palestinians be the fall guys. > [@Magiver](#): > > The bombing of Tokyo was as bad or worse than the atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Aside from no radiation yes, the firebombing of Tokyo from March 9-10 in 1945 was worse than either atomic bomb. I’m not convinced conventional bombing, which was slower and took more effort for the perpetrators, was not going to cause Japan to surrender. Slow starvation, which they were facing, might have done so. But even the US didn’t think bombing alone was going to win the war which was why they were planning a massive invasion of the Japanese islands. There’s no denying the atomic weapons vastly accelerated the end of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1651 "2023-11-15T10:02:22Z")
Well, after reading and answering posts in order on this thread I get to the end and see the mod note. I really hope my responses didn’t cross a line and if they did so I’m sorry. It’s too late for me to go back and edit. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1652 "2023-11-15T10:04:59Z")
Gaza in 2023 is worlds removed from Japan in 1945 – ideologically, geopolitically, and otherwise. I think the analogy clouds more than it clarifies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1653 "2023-11-15T10:13:15Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > Gaza in 2023 is worlds removed from Japan in 1945 – ideologically, geopolitically, and otherwise. I think the analogy clouds more than it clarifies But does that cut both ways? Someone posted upthread that: _“Apparently you can’t bomb a population into submission. That was one of the lessons of WWII.”_ If you want to argue that Gaza in 2023 is worlds removed from Japan in 1945, then maybe it’s that ostensible lesson — if it had been the case in that ‘worlds removed’ example — that’d cloud rather than clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1654 "2023-11-15T10:24:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But does that cut both ways? It does. ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1655 "2023-11-15T11:22:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That is why war is hell. No, it is worse than hell, to quote from M\*A\*S\*H > There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them - little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander. Some people wish it was hell, because then that would mean that only those who deserve it are the ones suffering, but that is not the case here. `//i\\` ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1656 "2023-11-15T13:40:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@cmkeller](#): > > > > It’s a peace platitude by starry-eyed pacifists who see an equivalency in all violence and therefore think of the victim hitting back at the initial aggressor as “revenge.” > > That’s not at all what I meant but by all means keep interpreting what I say incorrectly if that’s you doing you. If that’s not what you meant, then that was an odd context to post it in and I did just read through the thread to double-check. However, if you meant to apply your statement not to the current, still-being-fought situation, but to a future in which Hamas and similarly-inclined groups have been eradicated from Gaza and the remaining citizens of Gaza have no capacity or inclination to initiate violence against Israel, then I will agree that violence by Israel against the Palestinians at that point would be revenge rather than justified, and the quote would be fairly applied. > [@Broomstick](#): > > If the defender then becomes the aggressor in turn then you just perpetuate violence. What happens after the shooting stops matters. At some point someone has to stop the aggression. I can agree with that, but the current conflict is far from that point, and as I said above, that seemed to still be the context of your original remark. I’d be thrilled for some form of Marshall Plan for Gaza. Strangely enough, that’s pretty much what Israel DID do to Gaza and the West Bank after getting stuck with them in 1967. Before the first intifada, Palestinians in those territories had the second-highest per capita income of any national group of Arabs in the Middle East, the highest being Arab citizens of Israel proper. History demonstrates that when Israeli citizens are not being directly endangered from the Arabs in the Occupied Territories, Israeli’s attitudes toward them is not vengeful, but helpful and hopeful. But that point on non-violence needs to be achieved first. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1657 "2023-11-15T13:48:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I really hope my responses didn’t cross a line Nope, that whole post was fine. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1658 "2023-11-15T13:59:29Z")
Israel post-Gaza invasion is in a bit of a catch-22. On one hand, if you go in a completely wreck a state to remove the standing government from power, the right thing to do is to remain behind and help rebuild. On the other hand, if Israel does precisely that, there will be no end of accusations that Israel’s plan all along was to take that territory back for themselves. A better solution I think will be for a coalition of Arab nations and moderate West-Bank Palestinian officials to do back their rhetoric up with action and help rebuild Gaza and install a non-terroristic government actually willing to move the ball toward a two-state agreement, with significant financial contribution from Israel. This might be my last post in this thread since Babale has been banned; I’m moving over to the Pit thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=76) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=78)