# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1719 "2023-11-20T15:16:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > None of these guys saw cameras in the hallways What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1720 "2023-11-20T15:22:52Z")
Hamas marched the hostages down the hallway apparently unaware that they were being recorded. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1721 "2023-11-20T15:23:44Z")
More like they didn’t care. They had free run of the place, afterall. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1722 "2023-11-20T15:27:49Z")
You can’t expect a bunch of doctors to risk their lives by ratting out Hamas. Honestly, i read their fairly mild denials as weak evidence that Hamas was in the hospital. On the other hand, I’ve been underwhelmed by the evidence the IDF has released to date. Shutting down an entire hospital full of sick people, people in intensive care, preemies, people who will surely die if the hospital loses power, is a really big deal, and I’d think there would have to be some really major military operations going on to justify it. Not just a few guys with guns and maybe some computers. I’d have thought a less damaging assault on the hospital would be adequate for that. Honestly, I’m really hoping the IDF has some much better evidence they can release soon. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1723 "2023-11-20T15:31:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You can’t expect a bunch of doctors to risk their lives by ratting out Hamas. Honestly, i read their fairly mild denials as weak evidence that Hamas was in the hospital. Fair enough, stiches probably aren’t enough if you snitch on Hamas. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’d think there would have to be some really major military operations going on to justify it. Not just a few guys with guns and maybe some computers. I’d have thought a less damaging assault on the hospital would be adequate for that. While Hamas was definitely in the hospital proper I think the IDF’s claim has always been that the main Hamas base is under the hospital in tunnels, not in the building itself. They haven’t assaulted the tunnels yet (and honestly I have no idea how they plan to do it - it seems like an impossibly deadly task…) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1724 "2023-11-20T15:53:50Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I doubt that Hamas leaders are getting bombed and shot in Gaza. They aren’t concerned about their underlings that are dying. Correct, I think they are enjoying room service in a hotel. They’re not concerned - in fact the deaths of Palestinians are exactly what they were after in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1725 "2023-11-20T16:06:50Z")
The preemies at Al-Shifa have been evacuated to Egypt by the UN, IDF and Red Crescent: > > **[Medics transfer 28 premature babies from Gaza to Egypt](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/group-premature-babies-evacuated-gaza-into-egypt-tv-2023-11-20/)** > > A group of 28 premature babies from Gaza were evacuated on Monday from a hospital inside the bombarded Palestinian enclave into Egypt to receive treatment, according to Egyptian television footage and a Palestinian hospital doctor. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1726 "2023-11-20T16:46:55Z")
Hamas terrorists also recorded their 10/7 atrocities in real time and posted them on social media. Clearly not being seen is not a major concern for them. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1727 "2023-11-20T17:34:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > On the other hand, I’ve been underwhelmed by the evidence the IDF has released to date. Shutting down an entire hospital full of sick people, people in intensive care, preemies, people who will surely die if the hospital loses power, is a really big deal, and I’d think there would have to be some really major military operations going on to justify it. Not just a few guys with guns and maybe some computers. You do realize a Hamas HQ will basically be a bunch more guys with guns and computers, and probably some stockpiles of equipment. Just in a more protected location for them. It’s not going to be Hitler’s bunker or the Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1728 "2023-11-20T18:47:50Z")
I have no idea what it will look like. But the only stuff i saw is stuff that might be one US home. And if “headquarters” is nothing more than a random room with some guys in it, i don’t see what military benefit there is in “destroying” it, as it can be set up again in about 15 minutes anywhere. Again, destroying a hospital is a big fucking deal. Any country that wants to be seen as maybe trying to follow the Geneva conventions has to have a pretty clear and significant military benefit of they do it. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1729 "2023-11-20T22:24:21Z")
My personal opinion. I think the strategic value of Shifa hospital was vastly over valued. It was not zero, but the intelligence was wrong. I also think people died because of this overvalue. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1730 "2023-11-20T22:28:05Z")
…from the UN Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian Territories Francesca Albanese: > [@](#): > > "There have been over 12,000 people killed over a month now by Israeli bombs and military operations, 5000 of these are children, over 1.6 million people forcibly displaced, 30,000 Palestinians injured, and there is no measure to rescue them because Israel has also tightened its illegal blockade … a collective punishment on the 2.2 million people living in the Gaza strip, half of whom are children. > > "Half of the civilian infrastructure has been destroyed, 40,000 homes and churches, mosques, entire residential buildings, refugee camps and schools, bakeries, universities, there’s very little to start, restart life after a ceasefire is declared. > **[UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese calls for multilateral intervention...](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/502863/un-special-rapporteur-francesca-albanese-calls-for-multilateral-intervention-in-gaza)** > > In New Zealand to meet with politicians, NGOs, and others, Francesca Albanese says there is a disconnect between atrocities committed in Gaza and the response of the Western world. The latest on Indonesian Hospital, the next hospital on the list that is allegedly “on top of a network of Hamas tunnels, in order to conceal the underground fortifications”: > [@](#): > > WHO is appalled by the attack today on the Indonesian Hospital in North Gaza, which reportedly resulted in the killing of at least 12 persons including patients and their companions residing at the hospital. According to reports, tens of people were also injured in the attack, including some with critical and life-threatening injuries. Health workers and civilians should never have to be exposed to such horror, and especially while inside a hospital. > **[WHO appalled by latest attack on Indonesian Hospital in Gaza \[EN/AR\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/who-appalled-latest-attack-indonesian-hospital-gaza-enar)** > > News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Health and Safety and Security; published on 20 Nov 2023 by WHO In another attack: > [@](#): > > Separately, the medical charity Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) said a clinic it operated in Gaza City came under attack on Monday morning. Part of the building was engulfed in flames, it said, and four marked MSF cars were burned while a fifth was found crushed by a heavy vehicle or a tank. The charity said it was not immediately aware of the status of one member of staff and 20 family members. > **[IDF closes in on Indonesian hospital in Gaza as 12 people reportedly killed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/20/israel-hamas-war-al-shifa-gaza-palestine-hostages-idf-military-claim-footage-cctv-security-camera)** > > Medical worker says ‘women and children are terrified’ amid fears of repeat of events at al-Shifa hospital complex The latest Flash Update: > [@](#): > > - Over the past 24 hours, at least six Palestinian journalists have been killed in Gaza, according to media reports. The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) has preliminarily documented the death of 48 journalists since 7 October, including 43 Palestinian, 4 Israelis and 1 Lebanese, making it the deadliest month for journalists since CPJ began gathering data in 1992. > - The number of fatalities in the attack that directly hit Al Fakhouri school in Jabalia on 18 November is at least 24 people, as reported by UNRWA; others were injured. At the time of the incident, the facility was sheltering about 7,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs). A previous attack hitting this school, on 4 November, killed at least 12 people and injured 54. Since the start of hostilities, at least 176 IDPs have been killed in UNRWA premises and 778 have been injured, according to the agency. > > … > > - Since 11 November, following the collapse of services and communications at hospitals in the north, the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza has not updated cumulative casualty figures. Their reported fatality toll as of 10 November at 14:00 (latest update provided) stood at 11,078, of whom 4,506 were said to be children and 3,027 women. About 2,700 others, including some 1,500 children, have been reported missing and may be trapped or dead under the rubble, awaiting rescue or recovery. Another 27,490 Palestinians have reportedly been injured. > > … > > Over 1.7 million people in Gaza are estimated to be internally displaced, including almost 900,000 IDPs who are staying in at least 154 UNRWA shelters. > > … > > Overcrowding is contributing to the spread of diseases, including acute respiratory illness and diarrhea, prompting environmental and health concerns. On average, there is one shower unit for every 700 people and a single toilet for every 150 people. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #44 \[EN/AR/HE\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-44-enarhe)** > > Situation Report in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Education, Food and Nutrition and more; published on 19 Nov 2023 by OCHA From the WHO: > [@](#): > > GENEVA — The World Health Organization warned Monday that health services in Gaza had suffered “catastrophic” damage, with most hospitals no longer functioning. > > “We now have 1.7 million people displaced so we have twice or three times the population (in the south of Gaza), using one third of the hospital beds in less than a third of the hospitals available,” > > … > > “Even if tomorrow morning, this were to end in terms of a ceasefire, we still have a huge problem on our hands.” > > … > > Ryan said the services in the territory were already unable to provide care for more complex medical cases – including care for most cancer and kidney dialysis patients – and would likely be overwhelmed by some 5,500 births expected in the next month. > > Plans by the Israeli military to push further south, he said, would worsen health conditions even further. > > “The hospital situation – the primary health care system situation – in Gaza is catastrophic and it is the worst you can imagine (in the) north,” Ryan said. > **[WHO director says situation with Gaza's health care system is 'catastrophic'](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/who-director-says-situation-with-gazas-health-care-system-is-catastrophic#:~:text=WHO%20director%20says%20situation%20with%20Gaza's%20health%20care%20system%20is%20'catastrophic)** > > A top World Health Organization official described the hospital situation in Gaza as “catastrophic” on Monday, saying most are no longer functioning and what remains will likely be overwhelmed by thousands of births expected in the next month. Again, from WHO: > [@](#): > > # Gaza on verge of major disease outbreak, World Health Organisation warns > > Of the 36 hospitals in Gaza, 22 are out of action, the WHO says, while many people have only one to three litres of clean water per day. > > … > > With 800,000 people crammed into overcrowded schools and other “collective centres”, skin infections including scabies are being found, along with jaundice and diarrhoea, the WHO said. > > There is one toilet for several hundred people and “open defecation”, regional emergency director Richard Brennan told Sky News. > > … > > Of the 36 hospitals in Gaza, 22 are out of action, Mr Brennan said > **[Gaza on verge of major disease outbreak, World Health Organisation warns](https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-on-verge-of-major-disease-outbreak-world-health-organisation-warns-13011923)** > > Of the 36 hospitals in Gaza, 22 are out of action, the WHO says, while many people have only one to three litres of clean water per day. The healthcare situation in Gaza is _dire_. And with the Indonesian Hospital next on the list, things are about to get worse. What was uncovered at Al-Shifa was not worth _all of this_. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1731 "2023-11-20T22:52:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > You can’t expect a bunch of doctors to risk their lives by ratting out Hamas. Honestly, i read their fairly mild denials as weak evidence that Hamas was in the hospital. > > Fair enough, stiches probably aren’t enough if you snitch on Hamas. Pretty sure there was a strong element of “don’t ask, don’t tell” going on as well. > [@Babale](#): > > While Hamas was definitely in the hospital proper I think the IDF’s claim has always been that the main Hamas base is under the hospital in tunnels, not in the building itself. They haven’t assaulted the tunnels yet (and honestly I have no idea how they plan to do it - it seems like an impossibly deadly task…) Apparently back when Israel was in control of Gaza they built some underground rooms a.k.a. “a bunker” themselves, so that’s why they were so certain such a thing existed. Integrating anything built under the hospital into whatever other tunnels and projects Hamas had going makes sense. As for dealing with the tunnels… there are methods, but I can’t think of any that wouldn’t be appalling and/or violate Geneva conventions so I’m OK with the IDF taking their time about it to develop the least horrible means of dealing with the problem. I hope they’ll come up with something. > [@orcenio](#): > > My personal opinion. I think the strategic value of Shifa hospital was vastly over valued. It was not zero, but the intelligence was wrong. I also think people died because of this overvalue. I’m leaning towards that myself. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1732 "2023-11-21T02:36:32Z")
The Palestinian Authority is apparently claiming that Israel bombed the music festival? Not finding other sources besides this one yet, though… > **[Palestinian Authority denies Hamas music festival massacre](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1nngcpnp)** > > In official statement released worldwide, PA claims Israeli helicopters who arrived at the music festival near Re'im bombed civilians; Israeli officials condemn Abbas ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1733 "2023-11-21T03:05:47Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > The Palestinian Authority is apparently claiming that Israel bombed the music festival? Not finding other sources besides this one yet, though > **[PA falsely says Oct. 7 rave massacre was committed by IDF; Netanyahu:...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous/)** > > Following strong Israeli rebuke, Palestinian Authority foreign ministry deletes claim from social media; Ramallah also claims Israel 'fabricated' material to justify war on Hamas It was a social media post that they then deleted ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1734 "2023-11-21T03:26:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Shutting down an entire hospital full of sick people, people in intensive care, preemies, people who will surely die if the hospital loses power, is a really big deal, and I’d think there would have to be some really major military operations going on to justify it. The IDF brought fuel to the hospital which is the opposite of what Hamas has done. and the preemies would have had access to power using car batteries and inverters. This isn’t rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1735 "2023-11-21T04:07:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The IDF brought fuel to the hospital which is the opposite of what Hamas has done. and the preemies would have had access to power using car batteries and inverters. …there was literally a six day siege of Al-Shifa Hospital where the IDF prevented _anything_ from getting through to the hospital, and during that siege three of the preemies died. During the siege the IDF offered about an hour’s worth of fuel at 230am in the morning, dumped at a random location that was too dangerous to get. And there was no chance to " access to power using car batteries and inverters", because during the siege people were being shot at by the IDF if they left the hospital. After the IDF took the hospital, they barely gave any support to the people who took shelter in the hospital, then days later they forced the majority, including the walking wounded, to leave the hospital on foot with only an hours notice. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1736 "2023-11-21T13:27:46Z")
Perhaps the hamas guys were able to evacuate during the time it took to capture the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1737 "2023-11-21T14:19:51Z")
> NBC has cut ties with Marwat Al-Azza, a Palestinian freelancer, after she was arrested on suspicion of inciting to terrorism. > > Al-Azza posted on social media about an elderly woman taken by Hamas on Oct 7: “The old woman looks happy, a bit of action before she dies.” > > **[NBC cuts ties with journalist arrested by Israel for glorifying Hamas attacks](https://nypost.com/2023/11/20/business/israel-arrests-nbc-journalist-for-glorifying-hamas-attacks/)** > > Mirvat al-Azzeh was jailed Thursday after sharing four recent Facebook posts regarding Hamas’ sneak attack on Israel on Oct. 7 that killed more than 1,200 people. I see the NYT is still using Soliman Hijjy, a confirmed anti-Semitic Palestinian reporter who has made Pro-Nazi posts on social media. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1738 "2023-11-21T14:25:06Z")
Just a reminder who the IDF is up against: [https://www.hamas.com](https://www.hamas.com) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=82)