# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1739 "2023-11-21T17:49:02Z")
Fascinating editorial. Jonathan Schanzer’s editorial is also worth reading. I’m trying to keep a open mind. I’m waiting for them to explore and film more inside the tunnels. Link [Why is legacy media covering for Hamas on al-Shifa Hospital?](https://nypost.com/2023/11/20/opinion/why-is-legacy-media-covering-for-hamas-on-al-shifa-hospital/) > [@](#): > > There’s long-known eyewitness testimony, cited in a 2015 report by Amnesty International (no friend to the Jewish state), in which Palestinian victims of Hamas say specifically that the [terror cadre used the hospital for torture, interrogation and detention](https://nypost.com/2023/11/18/opinion/why-hamas-can-rightly-be-compared-to-nazis/). > > That testimony was all but confirmed in a recent interview with a UK doctor, who said: “When I was first asked to work there, I was told there was a part of the hospital I was not to go near, and if I did, I’d be in danger of being shot.” > > Indeed, as [Jonathan Schanzer noted at Commentary](https://www.commentary.org/jonathan-schanzer/the-real-gaza-hospital-crisis/) a month ago, the mainstream-media evidence goes back to 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1740 "2023-11-21T21:46:31Z")
…that hamas dot com website is not-safe-for-work, and is almost certainly disinfo, not a “real” Hamas website. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Link [Why is legacy media covering for Hamas on al-Shifa Hospital?](https://nypost.com/2023/11/20/opinion/why-is-legacy-media-covering-for-hamas-on-al-shifa-hospital/) The answer is that legacy media _isn’t_ covering for Hamas on al-Shifa. There were very specific claims made about the command and control bunker that was under al-Shifa. They had videos and everything. But that video didn’t reflect reality. The evidence that was presented prior to the taking of al-Shifa that the hospital was being used as “command and control for Hamas” was as _poor_ as the evidence presented in the New York Post editorial. Legacy media are _doing their job_ in this case. And on hospitals: the latest statement from Doctors without Borders after yesterdays attacks on Al Awda Hospital that killed two of their doctors: > [@](#): > > Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) is horrified by the killing of two of our doctors, Dr. Mahmoud Abu Nujaila and Dr. Ahmad Al Sahar, and another doctor, Dr. Ziad Al-Tatari, following a strike on Al Awda Hospital, which is one of the last remaining functional hospitals in northern [Gaza](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/where-we-work/palestine). This tragedy follows the killing of MSF laboratory technician [Mohammed Al Ahel](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/msf-mourns-killing-our-colleague-gaza), who was killed at home with members of his family in an airstrike on Al Shati refugee camp on November 6. > **[Gaza: MSF doctors killed in strike on Al Awda Hospital](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-msf-doctors-killed-strike-al-awda-hospital)** > > We condemn this strike in the strongest terms and yet again call for the respect and protection of medical facilities, staff, and patients. And from CNN a couple of hours ago: > [@](#): > > “The hospitals in northern Gaza are all completely closed, and there is no medical service that can be provided in the north,” he said. [Israeli strikes hit northern Gaza while paralyzed hospitals continue receiving patients](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-21-23/h_bf329c4139ae035eacb050f3eb20522d#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20hospitals%20in%20northern%20Gaza,the%20north%2C%E2%80%9D%20he%20said). ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1741 "2023-11-21T22:43:42Z")
Did Hamas plan and set a PR trap for Israel re: the al-Shifa hospital? While the fighting was happening outside the hospital, I was wondering “If Hamas claims there are no headquarters or anything militarily important at the hospital, why fiercely fight with Israel outside of it, resulting in civilian casualties?” Now that we’ve seen not much evidence from Israel about extensive Hamas compounds at the hospital, is it possible that Hamas (a) deliberately made Israel intelligence believe there was something of huge importance there (b) fought them for many days outside the hospital to generate civilian victims and international condemnation of Israel and (c) knew that there won’t be much for Israel to find at the hospital, thus making all the reasons for attacking a hospital come across as lies? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1742 "2023-11-21T23:11:50Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Did Hamas plan and set a PR trap for Israel re: the al-Shifa hospital? …no. Israel has been making this same claim for _years_. It became, as some have said in this thread, “common knowledge”. As others have said in this thread, its “insurgency 101.” It didn’t matter that everybody who had worked in the hospital (including international aid agencies and NGO’s) said they had seen no evidence of command and control bunkers, that Israel have had decades to verify this information but never bothered to do so. This wasn’t a “trap.” Its gas-lighting. And it did the job. It gave the IDF enough cover to take al-Shifa out of action, and they used variations of the very same story to take out all the hospitals in the north. > [@Polerius](#): > > (a) deliberately made Israel intelligence believe there was something of huge importance there (b) fought them for many days outside the hospital to generate civilian victims and international condemnation of Israel and (c) knew that there won’t be much for Israel to find at the hospital, thus making all the reasons for attacking a hospital come across as lies? None of this matches anything that actually happened. The deliberate targeting of the hospitals wasn’t a Hamas strategic decision. It’s an _IDF one_. The international condemnation of Israel for what it did here, and in its actions _after_ it took the hospital and forced those who were sheltering there to leave, is entirely deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1743 "2023-11-21T23:40:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And there was no chance to " access to power using car batteries and inverters", because during the siege people were being shot at by the IDF if they left the hospital. But there was plenty of chances before the siege. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > After the IDF took the hospital, they barely gave any support to the people who took shelter in the hospital, What support did Hamas give? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1744 "2023-11-21T23:47:44Z")
ABC News is reporting 50 hostages could be released for a 4 to 5 day pause. That’s a lot less than prior reports. But it’s better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1745 "2023-11-21T23:58:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This wasn’t a “trap.” Its gas-lighting. And it did the job. It gave the IDF enough cover to take al-Shifa out of action, and they used variations of the very same story to take out all the hospitals in the north. Why on earth would the IDF care about taking al-Shifa “out of action” if it isn’t a Hamas base? […trimmed…] ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1746 "2023-11-22T00:01:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > But there was plenty of chances before the siege. …it was a _hospital_. As it was, they were having to MacGyver most things due to a lack of resources. And what they ended up doing with the premature babies was _much_ more practical than trying to use car batteries, and it ended up saving most of the babies lives. > [@Magiver](#): > > What support did Hamas give? We know that despite the siege that started in the early days of the war, the hospital continued to be supplied with food, water, and the thousands of litres of fuel that it needed to keep the hospital running. Whether those supplies can be attributed to NGO’s, Humanitarian agencies, Ministry of Health staff, the community, or Hamas, I don’t think any of us could provide a breakdown. But we know that it all stopped when the IDF began its siege. And we know that several days after the IDF took the hospital, they gave everybody taking shelter at the hospital one-hours-notice to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1747 "2023-11-22T00:33:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > But somehow the narrative has become “there was no Hamas there > > Where are you seeing that? I’ve seen “There’s no evidence that this was a Hamas HQ,” but that’s a far cry from what you’re saying the narrative has become. Are you still wondering where I got this impression? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1748 "2023-11-22T00:38:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Are you still wondering where I got this impression? Yes. @Banquet_Bear, are you claiming that there was **no** Hamas at the hospital? If not @Banquet_Bear, @Babale, who do you think is making that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1749 "2023-11-22T00:46:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > are you claiming that there was **no** Hamas at the hospital? …I might be missing larger context because there are some posts that I’m able to see, but in response to your specific question: I’m not claiming there was no Hamas at the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1750 "2023-11-22T00:57:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This wasn’t a “trap.” Its gas-lighting. And it did the job. It gave the IDF enough cover to take al-Shifa out of action, and they used variations of the very same story to take out all the hospitals in the north. This paragraph seems to imply that you’ve concluded there’s no truth to the IDF’s assertions about Hamas’s use of the hospital and directly underneath it, and that the IDF has some interest in destroying Gazan hospitals (why?) entirely separated from their war against Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1751 "2023-11-22T00:59:11Z")
I find that hard to reconcile with earlier statements made, like this one: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > None of this matches anything that actually happened. The deliberate targeting of the hospitals wasn’t a Hamas strategic decision. It’s an _IDF one_ > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > I posted above that US intelligence feels that Hamas is hiding in/below the hospitals > > …US Intelligence ALSO thought Iraq had WMD’s. > > And only yesterday a State Department spox refused to say anything about this, and referred _reporters to the reporting_. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because every doctor, every nurse, every aid worker that has I’ve seen interviewed in the last month says they have seen no evidence that Hamas has an HQ at Al-Shifa ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1752 "2023-11-22T01:04:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and that the IDF has some interest in destroying Gazan hospitals (why?) Not only is this a very good question, it gets at an _incredibly_ serious and troubling allegation that has been made repeatedly in this thread, by more than one poster, sometimes explicitly and other times implicitly, but never with any evidence. If someone is going to claim that the IDF is murdering civilians on purpose - not because the IDF is too trigger happy and callous but because they are purposefully killing civilians in cold blood - they shouldn’t do so coyly. They should just come out and openly say whatever it is they want to say, or if they’re not prepared to do so, don’t make allegations they cannot back up. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1753 "2023-11-22T01:14:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This paragraph seems to imply that you’ve concluded there’s no truth to the IDF’s assertions about Hamas’s use of the hospital and directly underneath it, …that would be what the evidence suggests. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and that the IDF has some interest in destroying Gazan hospitals Every hospital in the north is out of service. WHO have been asked to help evacuate Al Shifa, Indonesian Hospital and Al Ahli Hospital. It isn’t a matter of “destroying them.” Just shutting them down. As to why they’ve decided to do this: they haven’t found evidence of Hamas command and control at _any_ of the hospitals. So you tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1754 "2023-11-22T01:15:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > they haven’t found evidence of Hamas command and control at _any_ of the hospitals. So you tell me. In the interest of factual accuracy, let me point out that this is only true if you consider automatic weapons, explosives, vehicles used in the Oct 7 massacres, and tunnel networks to be normal hospital features. Why should @iiandyiiii tell you what _you_ are alleging? Why don’t _you_ tell us what it is that _you_ allege? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1755 "2023-11-22T01:25:42Z")
If I wanted to kill civilians at a hospital, I’d blow the thing up, and claim that it was hamas munitions exploding. Is it not possible that hamas took their stuff and left through tunnels, like the one with a metal door that had an opening to shoot through? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1756 "2023-11-22T01:28:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is it not possible that hamas took their stuff and left through tunnels, like the one with a metal door that had an opening to shoot through? I don’t think so, I’ve heard that only gorillas know how to fight in this fashion ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1757 "2023-11-22T01:29:24Z")
Guerillas? I do not understand. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1758 "2023-11-22T01:31:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > In the interest of factual accuracy, let me point out that this is only true if you consider automatic weapons, explosives, vehicles used in the Oct 7 massacres, and tunnel networks to be normal hospital features. There is a huge difference between “Hamas command and control” and Hamas foot-soldiers. I think you’re conflating the two, in posts like this and elsewhere. Do you see a significant and meaningful difference between scenarios where: 1. A hospital has a number of Hamas fighters, but no Hamas leaders; and 2. A hospital has Hamas leadership and equipment that’s used to coordinate operations? If you see that significant difference, which one of those do you think is being denied, and which one do you think IDF is providing evidence of? I don’t want to be coy. I see a big difference between those two. I think the second is being denied, and IDF has provided evidence of the first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=83)