# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1759 "2023-11-22T01:47:38Z")
AFAICT, evidence has been presented of Hamas use of the hospital complex, but not so far to the extent the IDF has claimed (i.e. command center). Maybe that will still come out. As for the reason, destroying where the IDF believes Hamas to be hiding seems like the Occam’s Razor explanation. This doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the right thing to do, morally or strategically. But it’s a lot easier to believe that the IDF is trying to destroy where they think Hamas is than that they’re trying to shut down Gazan hospitals for no apparent reason. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1760 "2023-11-22T01:49:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is a huge difference between “Hamas command and control” and Hamas foot-soldiers. I think you’re conflating the two, in posts like this and elsewhere. Do you see a significant and meaningful difference between scenarios where: > > 1. A hospital has a number of Hamas fighters, but no Hamas leaders; and > 2. A hospital has Hamas leadership and equipment that’s used to coordinate operations? > > If you see that significant difference, which one of those do you think is being denied, and which one do you think IDF is providing evidence of? I do see a difference between the two. I think the evidence provided by the IDF shows that there were significant weapon and equipment caches, that hostages were brought to and potentially kept at the hospital by Hamas; and that’s just the stuff the IDF captured after Hamas withdrew; nor does it include whatever lurks in the tunnels under the hospital. To me, that is absolutely evidence that the hospital was being used by Hamas, and it is also supportive of the assertion that the tunnels below lead to a major center of operations, especially when you combine this evidence with past complaints by doctors, human rights group, and even Fatah. Like @Dorjan said, I have no idea what people expect Hamas operational centers to look like. They are a terrorist group, guerilla fighters. Their HQs are stockpiles of equipment hidden behind as many civilians as possible. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Guerillas? I do not understand. I was being sarcastic and trying (and I suppose failing) to be funny. Yes, of course Hamas can pack up as much equipment as they can carry and flee. That’s precisely how guerilla groups fight. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1761 "2023-11-22T01:52:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I do see a difference between the two. I think the evidence provided by the IDF shows that there were significant weapon and equipment caches, that hostages were brought to and potentially kept at the hospital by Hamas; and that’s just the stuff the IDF captured after Hamas withdrew; nor does it include whatever lurks in the tunnels under the hospital. How many hostages? I thought I heard “two,” but it may be more. > [@Babale](#): > > To me, that is absolutely evidence that the hospital was being used by Hamas, Again, I don’t think anyone disputes _this part of the claim_. > [@](#): > > and it is also supportive of the assertion that the tunnels below lead to a major center of operations, especially when you combine this evidence with past complaints by doctors, human rights group, and even Fatah. I don’t see how this supports the idea that the tunnels lead to a major center of operations. Doesn’t it euqally support the idea that there were foot soldiers but no command folks here? I really feel like I’m missing something. > [@Babale](#): > > Yes, of course Hamas can pack up as much equipment as they can carry and flee. That’s precisely how guerilla groups fight. Right–which is why a siege is such a strange choice. If you know that the soldiers in the hospital can flee via underground tunnels, _and_ you know a siege will result in the deaths of civilians inside, what is the military advantage of the siege? Doesn’t it just give the soldiers a chance to flee via their tunnels? Sieges are designed to entrap enemies when they can’t flee. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1762 "2023-11-22T02:12:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > AFAICT, evidence has been presented of Hamas use of the hospital complex, …the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war are quite specific here. And “use” of the hospital isn’t enough to remove the protective status of the hospital. Hospitals can treat Hamas soldiers. And Hamas soldiers can bring wounded people into the hospital. And the conventions even allow weapons to be _stored_ at the hospital. And this is all that the evidence so far really suggests. It doesn’t suggest they were used as command and control. It doesn’t suggest that hospitals were used as a “node.” If Hamas soldiers were firing rockets or rifles out the window the IDF would be allowed to respond to that. Because those are acts that, as per Article 19, “acts that are harmful to the enemy.” But this was never a thing that the IDF _claimed_ happened. Not in the lead-up to the take over of the hospital. And even if they did: the removal of those protections wouldn’t be permanent. You still need to take care to limit civilian casualties, and this includes not stopping access to food, water, power, and medical supplies. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As for the reason, destroying where the IDF believes Hamas to be hiding seems like the Occam’s Razor explanation. If you haven’t seen this: then watch this interview that Mehdi Hasan has with Mark Regev, Senior Adviser to Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HD-yRuTasHU/maxresdefault.jpg "‘That was a mistake’: Mehdi challenges Israeli adviser Mark Regev on false Israeli claims") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD-yRuTasHU) Regev doesn’t _accept_ that Israel has killed any children in this campaign. He argues we don’t know how those people died. He thinks the casualty numbers are fake, but can’t provide an alternative number because they aren’t tracking the numbers. So what exactly are the metrics for success in this war? What does “Hamas hiding in the hospital” actually mean? How do they know if they’ve killed or captured one? Its why I think that instead of providing food, water and power to the thousands of people sheltering at Al Shifa they just kicked all of them out, including those who were in absolutely no condition to walk for miles to the next hospital. But doing that is absolutely a breach of the First Geneva Convention that states that there should be no “obstacle to the humanitarian activities” and that wounded and sick “shall be respected and protected in all circumstances.” > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But it’s a lot easier to believe that the IDF is trying to destroy where they think Hamas is than that they’re trying to shut down Gazan hospitals for no apparent reason. It isn’t for “no apparent reason.” They are trying to destroy where they think Hamas is, and by doing so they are breaching the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1763 "2023-11-22T02:16:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its why I think that instead of providing food, water and power to the thousands of people sheltering at Al Shifa they just kicked all of them out, including those who were in absolutely no condition to walk for miles to the next hospital. Perhaps they plan to investigate a booby trapped tunnel, and fear that hamas has planted explosives to destroy the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1764 "2023-11-22T02:23:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But we know that it all stopped when the IDF began its siege. It takes 2 groups to fight a war. Were the doctors attacking the IDF? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1765 "2023-11-22T02:24:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps they plan to investigate a booby trapped tunnel, and fear that hamas has planted explosives to destroy the hospital. …then as the occupying power they have an obligation to do _more_ than give them an hour’s notice to move, and then send them on their way. They can evacuate them to a safe distance, provide shelter, food, water, and ambulances for those that need them to get them to the nearest hospitals in the safe zones. What you _don’t_ do is what they actually did. > [@Magiver](#): > > It takes 2 groups to fight a war. Were the doctors attacking the IDF? No. The doctors were not attacking the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1766 "2023-11-22T02:25:29Z")
Question: in IDF’s review of what they found in the hospital, have they talked about finding any Hamas soldiers? Obviously they can’t show footage of corpses of enemy soldiers, or of captives, but have they said they found any? Related: I know that there were shots fired around the hospital. What does IDF say, if anything, about whether/to what degree IDF soldiers came under fire from people inside the hospital? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1767 "2023-11-22T02:27:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > No. > > The doctors were not attacking the IDF. So the people offering fuel to the hospital were held back and it wasn’t the doctors. That would leave Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1768 "2023-11-22T02:27:22Z")
Awesome [https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/22/middleeast/israel-approves-hamas-hostage-deal-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/22/middleeast/israel-approves-hamas-hostage-deal-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1769 "2023-11-22T02:28:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So the people offering fuel to the hospital were held back and it wasn’t the doctors. That would leave Hamas. …I don’t even understand what you are saying here at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1770 "2023-11-22T02:29:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t even understand what you are saying here at all. I believe he’s saying that Hamas soldiers inside the hospital were firing on IDF soldiers. How the fuel is involved escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1771 "2023-11-22T02:29:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They can evacuate them to a safe distance, provide shelter, food, water, and ambulances for those that need them to get them to the nearest hospitals in the safe zones. Yes, Hamas could have done that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1772 "2023-11-22T02:30:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas could have done that. …but they’re murderous assholes. IDF could have done that, but…? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1773 "2023-11-22T02:34:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t even understand what you are saying here at all. If the hospital was under siege then something was preventing the IDF from walking in with fuel and evacuating the babies as they doing now. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1774 "2023-11-22T02:38:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I believe he’s saying that Hamas soldiers inside the hospital were firing on IDF soldiers. How the fuel is involved escapes me. …the fuel is related to what we were talking about in a previous post regarding “Hamas not providing fuel.” As for the first: as I mentioned, if Hamas were shooting at IDF soldiers from the hospital, the IDF would be allowed to respond. But once the threat was eliminated, then there isn’t any reason why the protective status of the hospital wouldn’t be returned. And I’ve followed what happened to the hospital quite closely, and I didn’t see any reports of the IDF getting into exchanges with people _inside_ the hospital. But I haven’t read everything. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, Hamas could have done that. No they couldn’t have, because at the time the hospital was under control of the IDF. > [@Magiver](#): > > If the hospital was under siege then something was preventing the IDF from walking in with fuel and evacuating the babies as they doing now. As far as I can tell, there really wasn’t anything preventing the IDF from just walking in with fuel and food and water, taking control of the hospital, and helping to provide the care that people needed. In fact, in the pit thread, I argued that this was what they should have done. Secure the hospital, then roll in trucks of food, water, medical supplies and doctors and medical staff. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1775 "2023-11-22T02:44:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How many hostages? I thought I heard “two,” but it may be more. There was footage of two being brought in; a third who had been executed was found nearby; and the IDF found cells in the celler of the hospital, complete with maleshift ventilation and sewage. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t see how this supports the idea that the tunnels lead to a major center of operations. Doesn’t it euqally support the idea that there were foot soldiers but no command folks here? I really feel like I’m missing something. Based on the hostage facilities and the sheer quantity of weapons and equipment that the IDF has already found, that seems extremely doubtful to me. But even if no leaders were there, if it was a significant base of operations it doesn’t really matter whether it was being commanded from onsite or offsite, does it? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Right–which is why a siege is such a strange choice. If you know that the soldiers in the hospital can flee via underground tunnels, _and_ you know a siege will result in the deaths of civilians inside, what is the military advantage of the siege? Doesn’t it just give the soldiers a chance to flee via their tunnels? > > Sieges are designed to entrap enemies when they can’t flee. Israel has methodically been destroying tunnel entrances in areas they control. The IDF approaches the hospital, which has Hamas members in it; the IDF engages Hamas, staying at a distance; eventually Hamas retreats into their tunnels at which point Israel takes the hospital and can now engage Hamas in their lair. Eventually the goal is to take control of Gaza while preventing Hamas from popping up behind you (since you control or destroy all the entrances to the tunnels in the area under your control). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1776 "2023-11-22T02:44:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In fact, in the pit thread, I argued that this was what they should have done. Secure the hospital, then roll in trucks of food, water, medical supplies and doctors and medical staff. Well they have secured the hospital and they’re in the process of evacuating the babies. So they’re following your suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1777 "2023-11-22T02:46:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > IDF could have done that, but…? But Hamas was in control of the hospital. How would the IDF get the fuel up to the door without being shot by Hamas? How would the IDF ensure that once the fuel is delivered it gets to the doctors and their incubators rather than Hamas taking it to their existing stockpile? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1778 "2023-11-22T02:47:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As far as I can tell, there really wasn’t anything preventing the IDF from just walking in with fuel and food and water, taking control of the hospital, and helping to provide the care that people needed. That’s because you ignore clear evidence of Hamas fighters engaging the IDF. I thought you said you did _not_ claim that there was no Hamas there? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > are you claiming that there was **no** Hamas at the hospital? > > …I might be missing larger context because there are some posts that I’m able to see, but in response to your specific question: I’m not claiming there was no Hamas at the hospital. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=84)