# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1819 "2023-11-23T22:49:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What the heck are you talking about? What part of my post is this relevant to? …the part where you keep bringing up the fact that his brother who was killed 19 years ago was a senior Hamas figure. > [@Babale](#): > > No, I simply don’t trust this guy when he says “nope, no Hamas here, never seen them”. I think he’s probably sympathetic to them, considering his FB post, and may well cover for them. You aren’t required to “trust him.” But the IDF are obligated to respect the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. > [@Babale](#): > > So when the IDF says they engaged Hamas at Al Shifa and this guy says “nuh-uh”, I don’t believe him, since the IDF has absolutely no reason to attack a hospital that doesn’t have Hamas fighting from it. I need a MUCH better cite on what you consider “the IDF says they engaged Hamas at Al Shifa” than what has been provided so far in this thread. Because the conventions require > [@](#): > > Should they fall into the hands of the adverse Party, their personnel shall be free to pursue their duties, as long as the capturing Power has not itself ensured the necessary care of the wounded and sick found in such establishments and units. [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule28](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule28) I can’t stress this enough. This _isn’t_ what happened. At Al-Shifa many sick and wounded were forced to leave the hospital. Other hospitals in the north have simply been forced to shut down. Even if the hospitals were legitimate targets, they _aren’t any more._ The hospitals should all be up and running, either with the original hospital care workers, or taken over by the capturing power. > [@aceplace57](#): > > The time and effort to put them in makes me wonder if the tunnels were excavated first, covered over, and then the hospital was built. As has already been posted: > [@](#): > > **True.** > > Multiple sources have corroborated that a bunker or basement was built at Israel’s discretion in the 1980s. > **[Fact check: Did Israel build bunker under Shifa Hospital?](https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107)** > > Israel Defense Forces on Wednesday entered Gaza's largest hospital, which it says houses Hamas' main command center. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1820 "2023-11-23T23:06:57Z")
If I understand it correctly, @Babale is saying that the IDF wanted to go in and evacuate civilians, but they were prevented because _Hamas was shooting at them from the hospital_. If this is accurate, then ISTM that the IDF was not in any international violations in this specific instance, but I don’t know if this is accurate. If this turns out to be the case – that Hamas was actively fighting from hospital buildings and preventing the IDF from coming in – would you agree that this particular instance is not a violation of any international laws? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1821 "2023-11-23T23:30:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > is saying that the IDF wanted to go in and evacuate civilians, …I’m sorry: but what does that mean? It’s a _hospital_. It didn’t need evacuating. It was both treating hundreds of patients and serving as shelter for thousands more. They didn’t ask the IDF for help to evacuate the civilians. Remember: the IDF didn’t immediately evacuate the hospital. Thousands remained at the hospital, with limited food, water, medical supplies and no power, then they were given _one hours notice_ that they had to vacate the hospital and all but a handful remained. The walking wounded were forced to walk miles to get to the nearest hospital in a “safe zone.” No ambulances. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > would you agree that this particular instance is not a violation of any international laws? I’ll refer you to all of my previous posts where I’ve answered this question. Over and over again. Yes, the IDF would be allowed to respond. I’ve said this. But there is a difference between neutralizing a threat (which from the accounts of the thousands of people that were sheltering in the hospital, there _wasn’t_ Hamas soldiers actively fighting from hospital buildings) and what we have seen happen here. Because again: all of the hospitals in the north are all effectively out of service. There are people trapped right now, under the rubble, that can’t be rescused because they don’t have heavy equipment. And those that do can’t get transported to hospitals because the ambulances are out of action. People who have heart attacks will just die in their homes. Mothers having babies on their own. They are estimating 5000 babies will be born this month. No dialysis. No cancer care. People dying in misery and agony while the bombing continues unabated. No where to escape because the borders were closed. And some reports from the “safe zones” down south last night that the bombing was the worst that its ever been. Central Gaza is reporting an air strike every fifteen minutes right now. These quibbles over what went down on the day of the Al-Shifa takeover dwarf in comparison to the scale of death and destruction Gaza is living with. It’s been described as a “graveyard for children.” There is literally no escape. Entire generations of families wiped off the face of the earth. Hundreds of children, if they survive this, will live as amputees. This will be the legacy of the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1822 "2023-11-23T23:33:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If I understand it correctly, @Babale is saying that the IDF wanted to go in and evacuate civilians, but they were prevented because _Hamas was shooting at them from the hospital_ Right. And we were told that this is ridiculous and the IDF is obviously lying, in part because hospital staff said that they’d never seen Hamas operating at the hospital. But now we learn that in fact the director of the hospital has deep ties to Hamas (which should have been obvious since the Ministry of Health is run by Hamas…) and to me at least that calls into question prior claims made by the hospital director and his staff in regards to the IDF’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1823 "2023-11-23T23:35:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But there is a difference between neutralizing a threat (which from the accounts of the thousands of people that were sheltering in the hospital, there _wasn’t_ Hamas soldiers actively fighting from hospital buildings) and what we have seen happen here. So I have the answer to my question. The fact that this testimony was often coming from people with deep ties to Hamas (like the hospital director who we know was lying) or that it conflicts with video and physical evidence presented by the IDF does not change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1824 "2023-11-23T23:40:10Z")
And again. **If there was no Hamas presence at the hospital, what motivation would Israel have for attacking it?** ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1825 "2023-11-23T23:48:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So I have the answer to my question. The fact that this testimony was often coming from people with deep ties to Hamas or that it conflicts with video and physical evidence presented by the IDF does not change your mind. …I’m just a random poster on a message board. This “deep ties to Hamas” is a pivot. As you’ve just pointed out, the The Gaza Health Ministry operates under the administration of the Hamas authority. That makes _everyone_ that works at the hospital has “deep ties.” That makes everyone how has friends of family with people that work at the hospital have “deep ties.” It’s a convenient cover that the IDF has been used as an excuse for the appalling death toll. But what it doesn’t do is allow the IDF to ignore the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. The hospitals in the north should all still be operational. And none of the video and physical evidence changes this. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1826 "2023-11-23T23:50:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The hospitals in the north should all still be operational I agree, but unfortunately Hamas chose to operate and fight out of them. The fact that you keep denying this evidence doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1827 "2023-11-23T23:58:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree, but unfortunately Hamas chose to operate and fight out of them. …this allegation isn’t supported by the evidence. But even if they were fighting out of them, once the hospitals were secured the capturing Power is obligated to continue to allow the hospital staff to be free to pursue their duties, _or to take over their duties_. So why are neither of these two things happening? Who is providing much-needed healthcare to the hundreds of thousands of people that are still in the north? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1828 "2023-11-24T00:11:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > **If there was no Hamas presence at the hospital, what motivation would Israel have for attacking it?** …more importantly, after they did attack the hospitals, and after they effectively shut down every hospital in the north, why aren’t the IDF meeting their obligations under the conventions to keep the hospitals running? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1829 "2023-11-24T00:59:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this allegation isn’t supported by the evidence. You keep saying that, but somehow no matter how many times you say so the video footage of Hamas bringing hostages to Al Shifa doesn’t disappear; nor do the photos of holding cells used for hostages, or the massive piles of automatic weapons and explosive shells. If you want to engage with what is happening in reality, I am happy to discuss this further. But if you want to keep denying the reality that combatants engaged with the IDF out of Shifa Hospital, there isn’t really anywhere productive this conversation can go. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1830 "2023-11-24T01:32:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You keep saying that, but somehow no matter how many times you say so the video footage of Hamas bringing hostages to Al Shifa doesn’t disappear; …Al Shifa isn’t _every other hospital in the north_. The evidence doesn’t support that Hamas chose to operate and fight out Al Shifa, no does it support they chose to operate and fight out of every other hospital in the north. And hospitals are the place that _you take people that need healthcare_, which would include hostages. > [@Babale](#): > > nor do the photos of holding cells used for hostages, Photos of what the IDF _claims_ were holding cells. Many of those claims have been disputed. > [@Babale](#): > > or the massive piles of automatic weapons and explosive shells. Those “massive piles of automatic weapons” in the first few days after taking Al Shifa were literally a handful of weapons and a box of dates. And we’ve got video evidence of the “stockpile” of weapons that were behind the MRI machine increasing in number between the first IDF video and the time the BBC filmed. A reminder that hospitals are allowed to _store weapons._ This is _allowable_ under the conventions, as it means combatants can be treated at the hospital, with their weapons stored securely elsewhere. The mere presence of automatic weapons would _not_ lift the protections of the hospital. > [@](#): > > If you want to engage with what is happening in reality, I am happy to discuss this further. But if you want to keep denying the reality that combatants engaged with the IDF out of Shifa Hospital, there isn’t really anywhere productive this conversation can go. You tagged _me_ into the conversation. Where exactly did you expect it to go? I _hadn’t_ been responding to your recent posts in this thread. But you tagged me in and I obliged. My position remains unchanged. I stand by everything that I’ve said. Can I suggest if you think our conversations are not going to be productive, then stop tagging me in, and stop asking me questions. Because my positions here in this thread are backed up by the weight of international legal experts, and I’m not going to be waivering on that. I’m engaging in the reality that hundreds of thousands of people have no access to healthcare in the north, many are struggling to access healthcare in the south. I’m engaging in the reality that even if the IDF did have cause to attack the all of the hospitals in the north, once they secured them they had obligations under the conventions to ensure they remained operational. I’m engaging in the reality that thousands more Gazans are going to die over the next couple of months. Men. Women. Children. Babies. And they have no way of escaping. I’m engaging in the reality that this is a catastrophic humanitarian crisis. I’m engaging in the reality that the events of October the 7th were an evil act undertaken by a terrorist organization. But the people of Gaza are _not that terrorist organization_. And the siege, the systematic denial of healthcare to the north, the deliberate targeting of UN shelters, refugee camps and schools, do not serve the strategic goal of taking down Hamas, but are acts of collective punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1831 "2023-11-24T01:46:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I _hadn’t_ been responding to your recent posts in this thread. But you tagged me in and I obliged. My position remains unchanged. I stand by everything that I’ve said. Can I suggest if you think our conversations are not going to be productive, then stop tagging me in, and stop asking me questions. Because my positions here in this thread are backed up by the weight of international legal experts, and I’m not going to be waivering on that. I figured that if your position was evidence-based, new facts about the situation might change your mind. But if that’s not the case we don’t need to respond to one another any further. Although… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > the deliberate targeting of UN shelters, refugee camps and schools I will continue to point out that this is an _incredibly serious and disturbing allegation_ which you steadfastly refuse to provide evidence for. And when presented with evidence that _the IDF targets these locations because that’s where Hamas fights from_ you just accuse the IDF of lying and declare their evidence to be fake. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1832 "2023-11-24T02:09:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I figured that if your position was evidence-based, new facts about the situation might change your mind. …those “new facts” aren’t materially different from what we knew several weeks ago. My position has been vindicated. > [@Babale](#): > > I will continue to point out that this is an _incredibly serious and disturbing allegation_ which you steadfastly refuse to provide evidence for. A United Nations-affiliated school in Jabalia was literally bombed a few hours ago, killing so far about 30 people. On Thursday Abu Hussein School was hit, killing 27. I’ve linked to below footage of the attack on Fakhoora School from five days ago. Spoiled because it contains upsetting footage of multiple dead children. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb7s20xyHqo/](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb7s20xyHqo/) If you can stomach it, then look at the absolute _carnage_ that was caused by the attack on Fakhoora. 50 were killed in that attack. It isn’t up to me to prove that these attacks were justified. The only statement from the IDF on this attack was that “they only target Hamas.” That simply _isn’t good enough_. Not when you are killing hundreds of children. There is no evidence that these schools were where “Hamas was fighting from.” That isn’t even the claim the IDF are making. The decision to target those schools was _deliberate_. That is undeniably a _fact_. Somebody made a decision that the schools were _acceptable targets_. The burden of proof isn’t on me. The burdon on proof is on the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1833 "2023-11-24T02:31:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A United Nations-affiliated school in Jabalia was literally bombed a few hours ago, killing so far about 30 people. On Thursday Abu Hussein School was hit, killing 27. > > […] > > It isn’t up to me to prove that these attacks were justified. The only statement from the IDF on this attack was that “they only target Hamas.” That simply _isn’t good enough_. Not when you are killing hundreds of children. There is no evidence that these schools were where “Hamas was fighting from.” That isn’t even the claim the IDF are making. Are you freaking kidding me? We went back and forth on the Jabalia Central Battalion and their headquarters in an incredibly crowded urban “refugee camp” many pages ago. IIRC you even granted that Jabalia was being used by Hamas as an HQ (and then moved the goal post to demanding that I explain every other bombing in Gaza). Now Jabalia has no Hamas HQ again, and you’re back to claiming the IDF is targeting civilians? This is utterly ridiculous. It’s like arguing with ocean waves. I show you that one location was being used by Hamas so you back away there, then as soon as we start talking about another location you make accusations about the first location again. I am not going to go location by location with you proving that the IDF was targeting Hamas at each. If you’re going to claim that the IDF is purposefully targeting civilians, own up and do it, or don’t. This isn’t a juvenile game of “I’m not ~~touching you~~ accusing you of genocide!”. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1834 "2023-11-24T02:46:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > We went back and forth on the Jabalia Central Battalion and their headquarters in an incredibly crowded urban “refugee camp” many pages ago. …a quick search for “Jabalia Central Battalion” in this thread shows only one reference to it, and thats here in this post. If we had a “back and forth” on it, then thats the first I’ve heard of it. > [@Babale](#): > > IIRC you even granted that Jabalia was being used by Hamas as an HQ (and then moved the goal post to demanding that I explain every other bombing in Gaza). I’d much rather you quoted what I actually said, as it appears we haven’t discussed the Jabalia Central Battalion at all. > [@Babale](#): > > Now Jabalia has no Hamas HQ again, > [@](#): > > This determination must however be unequivocal: when in doubt as to whether a school or hospital has become a military objective, there is a presumption that it retains its civilian status. > > Even attacks against legitimate military targets must, however, follow two additional principles: 1) the principle of **proportionality** – whereby an attack that would cause _incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated_, is prohibited (See [Rule 14](https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule14) of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC) – and 2) the principle of **precaution in attack** – which states that _constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects_ (See [Rule 15](https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule15)of the Study on customary international law by the ICRC). > **[What does humanitarian law say about attacks on schools and hospitals? –...](https://watchlist.org/publications/what-does-international-law-say-about-attacks-on-schools-and-hospitals/)** > > The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Optional Protocols of 1977 (the main treaties of International Humanitarian Law – IHL) set a range of minimum standards for the conduct of hostilities. They are based upon the fundamental principle of... My position remains unchanged. IDF have not claimed that Abu Hussein or Fakhoora or the other school that was just hit today were on top of “Hamas HQ’s.” Are you claiming that all three schools, all hit this week, are all on top of Hamas HQ’s? > [@Babale](#): > > I am not going to go location by location with you proving that the IDF was targeting Hamas at each. I don’t expect you to. But I do expect the IDF to be doing so, because these are their obligations under international law. > [@Babale](#): > > This isn’t a juvenile game of “I’m not ~~touching you~~ accusing you of genocide!”. You’ve already shut down that conversation. Do you think I’m going to broach that again here, after what happened the last time? But I’ll quote the UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese said a few days ago: > [@](#): > > "At the same time, what has happened in the occupied Palestinian territories - primarily in Gaza - is a complete violation of all basic principles that international law establishes. > > "There have been over 12,000 people killed over a month now by Israeli bombs and military operations, 5000 of these are children, over 1.6 million people forcibly displaced, 30,000 Palestinians injured, and there is no measure to rescue them because Israel has also tightened its illegal blockade … a collective punishment on the 2.2 million people living in the Gaza strip, half of whom are children. > > "Half of the civilian infrastructure has been destroyed, 40,000 homes and churches, mosques, entire residential buildings, refugee camps and schools, bakeries, universities, there’s very little to start, restart life after a ceasefire is declared. > > “I’ve warned three times against the risk that Israel might be committing the crime of genocide in Gaza … there has been calls to flatten Gaza, to erase Gaza from Earth, and to kill the Gazans because they are ‘also responsible for what Hamas has done’ and there is no distinction here between civilians and militants.” > > Albanese, an international lawyer and academic, is the first woman appointed to the role since it was established in 1993. > **[UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese calls for multilateral intervention...](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/502863/un-special-rapporteur-francesca-albanese-calls-for-multilateral-intervention-in-gaza)** > > In New Zealand to meet with politicians, NGOs, and others, Francesca Albanese says there is a disconnect between atrocities committed in Gaza and the response of the Western world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1835 "2023-11-24T02:48:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > No they couldn’t have, because at the time the hospital was under control of the IDF. What are you talking about? When was the IDF in control of hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1836 "2023-11-24T02:51:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What are you talking about? When was the IDF in control of hospital. …they are in control if it _now_. And they had been in control of it for several days before they ordered most of the people who were sheltering there to leave the hospital in under an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1837 "2023-11-24T03:02:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …they are in control if it _now_. So Hamas could have transported patients prior to that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1838 "2023-11-24T03:05:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My position remains unchanged. IDF have not claimed that Abu Hussein or Fakhoora or the other school that was just hit today were on top of “Hamas HQ’s.” Are you claiming that all three schools, all hit this week, are all on top of Hamas HQ’s? I am agreeing with the IDF’s claim that they only target Hamas positions. Sometimes a civilian position may be hit because it is on top of a Hamas position (this is generally the case with the places most heavily hit, like Jabalia or Al Shifa, which are struck repeatedly over time); this is tragic and for this reason Hamas should have their ability to do this sort of thing removed by force. Sometimes it is because a strike went off target, which is tragic and should be investigated by the IDF to ensure there wasn’t a flawed procedure or bad actor that allowed this to happen. And sometimes it is due to bad intelligence, which again should be investigated to prevent it happening again and identify potential bad actors. What I don’t believe, and have never seen evidence for, is the claim that the IDF is purposefully targeting civilians for some nefarious purpose. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You’ve already shut down that conversation. Do you think I’m going to broach that again here, after what happened the last time? You did broach that topic again here, by making this accusation: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the siege, the systematic denial of healthcare to the north, the deliberate targeting of UN shelters, refugee camps and schools, do not serve the strategic goal of taking down Hamas, but are acts of collective punishment. You are making a claim there, an extremely serious claim. If you don’t feel like you can discuss or back up that claim in this thread, then I’d thank you if you refrain from making that claim; because due to its extremely serious nature it is _not one that I can leave unchallenged_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=87)