# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1839 "2023-11-24T03:06:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So Hamas could have transported patients prior to that. …they didn’t need to. It was a _hospital_. It _was_ the largest medical complex and central hospital in Gaza. It was the best place for the babies at the time. It’s why hospitals have protected status. They _had_ to evacuate the premature babies because the IDF cut off fuel supplies which meant they couldn’t use the incubators. And the important thing here is that the IDF continued to cut off fuel supplies even when they had full control of the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1840 "2023-11-24T03:07:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So Hamas could have transported patients prior to that. That’s really not relevant to any discussion being had here. Hamas has no regard for human life, including Palestinian life. I don’t think anyone is challenging that claim, not even Banquet\_Bear. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1841 "2023-11-24T03:10:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s really not relevant to any discussion being had here. Hamas has no regard for human life, including Palestinian life It’s completely relevant to why they used the Hospital for their use. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1842 "2023-11-24T03:20:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the important thing here is that the IDF continued to cut off fuel supplies even when they had full control of the hospital. Israel _still_ doesn’t have full control of the Al Shifa complex, not if you include the tubnels underneath which the IDF is still gaining control of. And that’s the key point. Al Shifa is on the very front line of this war, as are the other hospitals which had Hamas tunnels underneath. They are not safe places, even when full of IDF soldiers (and filling an active hospital with soldiers is, when you think about it, basically how Hamas got these hospitals into this mess to begin with). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1843 "2023-11-24T03:34:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I am agreeing with the IDF’s claim that they only target Hamas positions. …this wasn’t the claim that I quoted. The quote was that they “only target Hamas.” And if thats the case: where is the evidence for that? The attack on Fakhoora: what was the target? How many were taken out? The carnage in the video was on the upper floors of the school, so what was the target? How many Hamas soliders have been killed since the start of the war? How many bases? How many command and control bunkers? What is all of this death and destruction actually achieving? Can you give me any numbers? Anything other than a nebulous “they are targeting Hamas?” Because over 12,000 people are dead, we don’t know the exact amount any more, but it almost certainly is higher. 5000 of that are children. Over half of the entire population have been displaced. Half of the infrastructure destroyed. All the hospitals in the north are essentially out of action. The ones in the south are on life support. What is the strategic goal of this? Why aren’t they getting the hospitals the resources they need to go back into action? > [@Babale](#): > > Sometimes a civilian position may be hit because it is on top of a Hamas position (this is generally the case with the places most heavily hit, like Jabalia or Al Shifa, which are struck repeatedly over time); this is tragic and for this reason Hamas should have their ability to do this sort of thing removed by force. Sometimes it is because a strike went off target, which is tragic and should be investigated by the IDF to ensure there wasn’t a flawed procedure or bad actor that allowed this to happen. And sometimes it is due to bad intelligence, which again should be investigated to prevent it happening again and identify potential bad actors. I’ve listed a handful of incidents. But over 5000 children don’t die from a handful of incidents. There are _too many_ to list. If those children are dying because “they are on top of a military position” then the IDF are ignoring their responsibility for proportionality and precaution under international law. And if they died because “a strike went off target” or “because they had bad intelligence” then the IDF simply aren’t very good at their job. Are these the reasons why so many children are dead? Because all three of them are directly the fault of the IDF. > [@Babale](#): > > What I don’t believe, and have never seen evidence for, is the claim that the IDF is purposefully targeting civilians for some nefarious purpose. I’m not expecting to convince you of anything. > [@Babale](#): > > You did broach that topic again here, by making this accusation: And I stand by that. > [@Babale](#): > > If you don’t feel like you can discuss or back up that claim in this thread, then I’d thank you if you refrain from making that claim; because due to its extremely serious nature it is _not one that I can leave unchallenged_. I’ve provided and cited extensive evidence to support the claims I’ve made in this thread, and quoted an expert in international law who also supports it. I can provide many more if you wish. And the rhetoric, both inside and outside of the Isreali government, makes the intentions of many clear. The pattern we are seeing here isn’t one you would expect for taking out a terrorist organization. The siege. Shutting down all of the hospitals in the north. Driving hundreds of thousands of people down south where they continue to get bombed. Destroying 50% of civilian infrastructure. 1.6 million people displaced. What do you think the point of these tactics are? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1844 "2023-11-24T03:47:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel _still_ doesn’t have full control of the Al Shifa complex, not if you include the tubnels underneath which the IDF is still gaining control of. …they have control of it in the eyes of international law. > [@Babale](#): > > Al Shifa is on the very front line of this war The thing is…no it wasn’t. It was a _hospital_. I won’t dispute that Hamas may or may not have been in and out of the hospital over the last month. I’ll concede that maybe during the siege of the hospital there may have been some Hamas fighters that fought around the complex, although none of those that took shelter at the hospital saw any evidence of that. But treating the hospital as “the front line” when it has become very apparent that it _wasn’t_, is a major strategic and tactical blunder. Because now that you’ve taken Al Shifa, where is the front line now? What do we move onto this time? Is that why the IDF have been targeting schools this week? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1845 "2023-11-24T03:47:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The pattern we are seeing here isn’t one you would expect for taking out a terrorist organization. It’s the exact pattern you’d expect for taking out a ruling government, and in case you forget aside from being a terrorist group Hamas is in charge in Gaza. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Shutting down all of the hospitals in the north. You’ve provided 0 support for your assertion that the IDF is at all interested in shutting down hospitals. The IDF is targeting Hamas positions under these hospitals, and it is impossible for them to operate safely while that’s going on. It was also impossible for them to operate safely while Hamas was actively using those positions, but since Hamas doesn’t value the lives of Palestinian civilians, that didn’t stop them. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Driving hundreds of thousands of people down south where they continue to get bombed. > … > 1.6 million people displaced You’re right, why doesn’t Israel do what Hamas does and force all these people to stay so they can die in the crossfire while the IDF and Hamas fight? The evil IDF refusing to grant all those people a martyr’s death. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What do you think the point of these tactics are? To remove Hamas from their positions of incredible entrnachment while avoiding civilian casualties to the greatest extent possible. People are told to evacuate not out of some nefarious plan but because the best way to make sure people don’t die in the crossfire between the IDF and Hamas is to deny Hamas their human shields. Hospitals are not targeted because they are hospitals, but because Hamas has made them operational hubs (precisely because they knew that this would increase suffering and death when war with the IDF eventually came). > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What do you think the point of these tactics are? What do **you** think the point of these tactics is? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1846 "2023-11-24T03:49:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But treating the hospital as “the front line” when it has become very apparent that it _wasn’t_ Are we ignoring the footage of tunnels I posted earlier today? The front line very clearly **is** still below Shifa, as the IDF continues heading into the tunnels. And at many other locations around Northern Gaza where the IDF has taken the territory above the entrance to a tunnel complex. The front line _very clearly is_ right there. What are you _talking_ about? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1847 "2023-11-24T03:51:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ll concede that maybe during the siege of the hospital there may have been some Hamas fighters that fought around the complex, although none of those that took shelter at the hospital saw any evidence of that. “The hospital” consists of multiple buildings throughtout the complex, not just one of the buildings. Some of these buildings, all of which I consider part of “the hospital”, had militants in them when the IDF entered, or at a later point during IDF operations. Others did not. What does your statement mean? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1848 "2023-11-24T03:59:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s the exact pattern you’d expect for taking out a ruling government, and in case you forget aside from being a terrorist group Hamas is in charge in Gaza. …forcing 1.6 million people out of their homes is how you take out a “ruling government?” Denying food, water, shelter, electricity to over 2 million people is how you take out a ruling government? Killing 5000 children is how you take out a ruling government? > [@Babale](#): > > You’ve provided 0 support for your assertion that the IDF is at all interested in shutting down hospitals. I _don’t need too_. They’ve actually shut them down. > [@Babale](#): > > The IDF is targeting Hamas positions under these hospitals, and it is impossible for them to operate safely while that’s going on. The IDF have obligations under international law here. I’ve cited them multiple times. They can’t just shut down all access to healthcare. Not to hundreds of thousands of people. Not to take out a network of **empty tunnels**. > [@Babale](#): > > You’re right, why doesn’t Israel do what Hamas does and force all these people to stay so they can die in the crossfire while the IDF and Hamas fight? The evil IDF refusing to grant all those people a martyr’s death. The IDF are bombing them in the north. The IDF are bombing them in the south. They are bombing them in the hospitals, in the refugee camps, in the schools. There is no escape from the bombs. There is no escape from the siege. > [@Babale](#): > > To remove Hamas from their positions of incredible entrnachment **while avoiding civilian casualties to the greatest extent possible.** Well they are doing a real shit job at that aren’t they? > [@Babale](#): > > People are told to evacuate not out of some nefarious plan but because the best way to make sure people don’t die in the crossfire between the IDF and Hamas is to deny Hamas their human shields. Hospitals are not targeted because they are hospitals, but because Hamas has made them operational hubs (precisely because they knew that this would increase suffering and death when war with the IDF eventually came). The hospitals weren’t “operational hubs”. There are no “human shields.” Not in the way you describe it. People aren’t dying because they are in “the crossfire.” They are dying because the IDF keep droping bombs on them. > [@Babale](#): > > What do **you** think the point of these tactics is? I’ll defer to the UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese. She isn’t a member of the boards, so feel free to accuse her of whatever you like. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1849 "2023-11-24T04:01:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Are we ignoring the footage of tunnels I posted earlier today? The front line very clearly **is** still below Shifa, as the IDF continues heading into the tunnels. And at many other locations around Northern Gaza where the IDF has taken the territory above the entrance to a tunnel complex. …the tunnels built by Israel back in 1983? Or were you talking about something else? And were there anyone in those tunnels? The frontline are empty tunnels built decades ago? > [@Babale](#): > > What does your statement mean? It means exactly what I said. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1850 "2023-11-24T06:52:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > **If there was no Hamas presence at the hospital, what motivation would Israel have for attacking it?** Collective punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1851 "2023-11-24T08:50:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Also “several other medical personnel”. For questioning by Bet Shin. He was not arrested at the hospital, but detained as he was moving south to evacuate. > [@aceplace57](#): > > The hospital director would most likely have knowledge of Hamas activities and the hostages being treated at the hospital. It also prevents him from speaking to any media about the actual conditions in the hospital and provoking questions to the narrative of the IDF and Israeli government. > [@Babale](#): > > His brother was a high ranking Hamas leader, but you’re welcome to continue minimizing that fact. > > And you are disregarding actual evidence that Hamas _was_ active at Al Shifa, because this guy whose brother was a Hamas leader said he’d never seen Hamas at the hospital, despite his own security footage showing Hamas at the hospital. Ah, so it’s guilt by association, then? Of course, Israeli also has a history of bulldozing the homes of people merely related to criminal Palestinian regardless of whether or not the extended family had anything to do with it, so why should I be surprised this instance of holding an entire family guilty without trial? I have a sister I literally haven’t spoken to in over 15 years. I don’t even know where she’s living at the moment outside “this particular state” or how to contact her. If she were to commit a crime tomorrow should I, as her sister, be arrested, questioned about her activities and associates, and assumed to be complicit? Merely being related to someone is not proof of either knowledge or approval of their activities. Or maybe it is for the Israeli government, maybe that allows them to sleep at night after bombing hospitals into ruin and bombing schools. > [@Babale](#): > > So when the IDF says they engaged Hamas at Al Shifa and this guy says “nuh-uh”, I don’t believe him, since the IDF has absolutely no reason to attack a hospital that doesn’t have Hamas fighting from it. Have you been listening to the racists and lovers of genocide in the Israeli government these days? Yes, there is another possible motivation there and it is exceedingly ugly. > [@Babale](#): > > And again. **If there was no Hamas presence at the hospital, what motivation would Israel have for attacking it?** Genocide. There are people in the Israeli government right now who we have on video saying exceedingly awful things. People like Itamar ben Gvir who have openly called to ethnically cleanse Israel of anyone Arab and was convicted in 2007 of racism by the Israeli courts, who lives in an illegal settlement on lands that belong to someone else. There’s Bezalel Smotrich, another government official breaking the law by living in an illegal settlement, who denies even the existence of Palestinians, an open promoter of apartheid in all aspects of life, and I’ll just point to the [Wikipedia entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#Political_positions) on this rather than make the mother of all run-on sentences. Oh, and Smotrich also more or less states that Reform Judaism is a “fake religion” and gets pissy about playing nice with others, his views on religious tolerance are summed up by this winner: > We [Orthodox Jews] all would want the State of Israel to be run according to the Torah and Jewish law, it’s just that we can’t because there are people who think differently from us, and we have to get along with them." Poor baby, has to be insulated from anyone different from him. The point being, these are the people Netanyahu got into bed with to stay in power. The government of Israel has deep ties to genocidally minded racists and bigots and THAT is why so many people are so very deeply suspicious about the actions and motivations of the Israeli government by extension the IDF which is acting under their orders. These facts are very uncomfortable for me as someone Jewish (although according to Smotrich I, as a product of a mixed marriage am some sort of abomination and not Jewish). I assume it is even more uncomfortable for someone Israeli. For all the evidence that Hamas is an evil organization intent on war and destruction it is also becoming very apparent that there is also deep rot and evil in the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1852 "2023-11-24T09:37:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You keep saying that, but somehow no matter how many times you say so the video footage of Hamas bringing hostages to Al Shifa doesn’t disappear The Geneva conventions mandate that a party in a conflict provide medical care to those in its control. That means taking care of any injuries a hostage has. Where else but a hospital would they take these people? Aside from anything else, taking the injured to a hospital is actually what they’re supposed to do, even though Hamas is not a signatory to any international agreement. Providing video of hostages being taken to a hospital for care is proof that in that particular situation Hamas did the right and humane thing even if that’s not their normal pattern of action. It is not proof that the hospital is somehow in cahoots with Hamas. > [@Babale](#): > > the photos of holding cells used for hostages Provided there is PROOF that those rooms are, indeed, that then that could be evidence for the argument Hamas was doing bad things there. Right now, not everyone is convinced of that. > [@Babale](#): > > the massive piles of automatic weapons and explosive shells So far what I’ve seen offered as “piles” of weapons would be dwarfed by the inventory of the typical gun store in my area. I can go down to my local Cabella’s or Bass Pro Shop and see much larger piles. Unlike Mr. Smotrich, who believes people not like himself should be barred from hospitals, the medical personal at Al-Shifa treated all comers. Under the provisions of the Geneva conventions weapons on injured combatants who are brought in for treatment are to be “secured”, which is usually meant to be put into storage somewhere. Which means a “pile” of enemy weapons in a storeroom. Which would not be inconsistent with what has been offered as “proof” of Al-Shifa being a Hamas “base”. So there are two things that the Israeli government is holding up as “proof” of evil intent and siding with the enemy which actually could be people in the hospital doing exactly what they should - seeking medical care for prisoners/hostages, treating all injured without regard to which side they’re on, and securing any weapons that come in with them. Sitting here on the sidelines I can’t determine which case actually applies here but I sure as hell am not going to simply trust the word of people like Smotrich who would happily deny my very existence. On top of which, as an occupying force, Israel has obligations to provide medical care in the territory it holds, or at the very least not interfere with medical personal providing medical care. Instead, the IDF has done the exact opposite by expelling everyone from these hospitals and shutting them down. Thereby condemning to death anyone unable to walk, anyone needing dialysis, and so forth. Those deaths are on Israel, not Hamas, because Israel directly brought about the conditions causing their deaths and did _nothing_ to attempt to save them. That is, frankly, barbaric. > [@Babale](#): > > I am agreeing with the IDF’s claim that they only target Hamas positions. Sometimes a civilian position may be hit because it is on top of a Hamas position That is more or less the justification used by the US to kill a third of million Iraqi civilians. And around 70,000 Afghani civilians. Given the carnage I found the argument repugnant then. I find the similar claims by the IDF equally repugnant now. The IDF is killing a grossly disproportionate number of civilians, and given that Hamas is continuing to lob rockets at Israel I question if this tactic is doing any good whatsoever. Maybe there’s some super-secret military intelligence that justifies everything but we haven’t seen it and, as I have already stated, I don’t trust the people currently running the Israeli government. > [@Babale](#): > > What I don’t believe, and have never seen evidence for, is the claim that the IDF is purposefully targeting civilians for some nefarious purpose. They don’t seem to _care_ about civilian deaths. At all. It’s starting to look like they give zero care or thought about “collateral damage” in their pursuit of Hamas. Anything and any loss is acceptable to get even one Hamas guy. The rest of the world might not agree. The Israeli government doesn’t seem to care about that. Indeed, there is mounting evidence that the Israeli government is using arrest to silence internal dissent when Jews in Israel protest their government’s actions. That’s not the action of a democracy. > [@Babale](#): > > People are told to evacuate not out of some nefarious plan but because the best way to make sure people don’t die in the crossfire between the IDF and Hamas is to deny Hamas their human shields. Telling people to evacuate when there is _nowhere safe to go_ is a sick joke. Telling hospital patients they have to evacuate _on foot_ is even worse. Bed bound patients who simply could not do those things remained when the IDF took over and it is the _obligation_ of Israel and the IDF to provide care for such people who, due to their injuries/illnesses, are not a threat to anyone. I mean, holy crap, there is ample video footage of Ukrainians treating Russian prisoners, providing medical care, food, clothing, and shelter when they clearly hate those guys. They do it because it’s the right thing to do. This is not an impossible request. Meanwhile, the IDF does nothing for patients too sick or injured to move and then blames Hamas for their deaths. This is how Israel becomes an international pariah state. That’s exactly what will happen if they keep doing these things. I understand those are really uncomfortable statements for someone Israeli to hear. It’s uncomfortable for anyone Jewish to hear, because what Israel does affects even those of us who are not Israelis even if we are Jews (for now - if Smotrich gets his way I won’t be one). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1853 "2023-11-24T16:38:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Collective punishment. You’re right, that is a possible motivation for this sort of action; but Banquet\_Bear seems very keen on insisting that Israel is genociding and ethnic cleansing and collectively punishing _without actually saying those words_, which I find incredibly frustrating. If that’s what BB’s theory is, let _them_ say so themselves. As for my specific thoughts about the IDF’s actions, see below. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Ah, so it’s guilt by association, then? Of course, Israeli also has a history of bulldozing the homes of people merely related to criminal Palestinian regardless of whether or not the extended family had anything to do with it, so why should I be surprised this instance of holding an entire family guilty without trial? Is he being sentenced to serve time over his brother’s action? Has he been sentenced at all? He said “there is no Hamas activity at the hospital”; the IDF believes he is lying (with good reason IMHO but YMMV); so they want to talk to him. I agree that if he does time over his brother’s actions that would be a very bad thing. But the IDF has known this whole time who is brother is and where his sympathies likely lie (based on FB posts praising his terrorist brother); that’s not what he is being arrested for. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I have a sister I literally haven’t spoken to in over 15 years. I don’t even know where she’s living at the moment outside “this particular state” or how to contact her. If she were to commit a crime tomorrow should I, as her sister, be arrested, questioned about her activities and associates, and assumed to be complicit? If it turbed out that she was the head of a terrorist group that targets… let’s say Belgians, and then you were made head of a hospital in the Netherlands that mostly treated and employed Flemish people, and you got accused of allowing Flemish Separatists to operate and strike out of the hospital, your ties to a major Flemish Separatist would certainly be a red flag. You shouldn’t be arrested for having a terrorist brother, but I’d certainly question your statement that you’ve never seen Flemish nationalists at the hospital. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Genocide. > > There are people in the Israeli government right now who we have on video saying exceedingly awful things. People like Itamar ben Gvir who have openly called to ethnically cleanse Israel of anyone Arab and was convicted in 2007 of racism by the Israeli courts, who lives in an illegal settlement on lands that belong to someone else. There’s Bezalel Smotrich, another government official breaking the law by living in an illegal settlement, who denies even the existence of Palestinians, an open promoter of apartheid in all aspects of life, and I’ll just point to the [Wikipedia entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#Political_positions) on this rather than make the mother of all run-on sentences. Oh, and Smotrich also more or less states that Reform Judaism is a “fake religion” and gets pissy about playing nice with others, his views on religious tolerance are summed up by this winner: Here’s something that might come as a surprise for you (well, maybe not you, you are reading my posts. It might come as a surprise to other posters). I won’t waste half a second on defending Smotrich, Ben Gvir, or their ilk. You’re right, they want to take Israel back to the bronze age and make us into a theocracy. They want to ruin our country, just as surely as it would be ruined if Hamas and ISIS and Hezbollah poured over our borders unopposed. When it comes to the Palestinians,again, you are right. They support actions that _would be genocidal_ if they were carried out. The _least bad_ among them simply squat in settlements and make noncommittal noises about God clearing the land for them once enough faithful Jews live in Israel; the worst take a “God helps those who help themselves” approach and do whatever they can, including straight up terrorism, to drive away the Palestinians. They would not be fans of you and they’d certainly not be fans of mine, since I am married to and have kids with a woman who isn’t Jewish. Plus I’m a Leftist, and they’ve said that us Leftists have forgotten what it means to be Jewish. Hell, they’re not even fans of Jewish people who are the right types of Jews and marry other Jews but are secular, their politicians asking us - “in what way are you Jewish?”. > [@Broomstick](#): > > These facts are very uncomfortable for me as someone Jewish (although according to Smotrich I, as a product of a mixed marriage am some sort of abomination and not Jewish). I assume it is even more uncomfortable for someone Israeli. For all the evidence that Hamas is an evil organization intent on war and destruction it is also becoming very apparent that there is also deep rot and evil in the Israeli government. You’re right! And for that reason there were _massive_ waves of protest against Netanyahu and his far right regime. In fact, the reason that Netanyahu clang to these fools so tightly is that Israel was _already_ roiling against him, to the point that he knew he would likely end up in prison. Tying his fate to Smotrich and Ben Gvir is the last act of a desperate politician. Doing so has been disastrous for Israel, from the conflict over the Judicial Reforms proposed by Netanyahu (read: establishing a dictatorship to prevent himself from going to jail) to the deterioration of the situation in the West Bank. But here is another fact. Ben Gvir, Smotrich, Otzma Yehudit, and the Religious Zionist Party - none of them are part of the War Cabinet, which is currently running the show. (Netanyahu is, unfortunately). Smotrich and Ben Gvir are part of the larger Security Cabinet, but that has much less influence over the course of the war, to the point that Ben Gvir has complained about being so cut off despite the security minister. In fact, the reason plans for a unity government fell through is that centrists like Yair Lapid refused to form an emergency government that Ben Gvir and Smotrich would be a pary of. And that’s been viewed as a monumental failure on Netanyahu’s part, as has nearly every other part of the war. These people don’t run the IDF, either. For the first time in history high ranking IDF members broke their tradition of political neutrality and condemned Netanyahu’s judicial reform bill. Huge numbers of Israeli revserve pilots refused to fly for Netanyahu’s dictatorship (for which Likudnik Nissim Vaturi said they should be executed). Remember, the main power block of these parties is composed of ulra-religious and fanatical people. Half of them don’t serve in the IDF because they go to Yeshiva instead, and the others get rejected by the IDF for being too fanatical (see: Ben Gvir). Look, Israeli politics is complicated. I see a lot of takes that rely on American politics as a crutch, and while that’s understandable, I think it is a mistake. The most prominent example of this is the idea that this war is good for or will even save Netanyahu somehow. That makes sense in the American context. But not in the Israeli one. This os a disaster for Netanyahu, one he will be held responsible for by history; his monumental failure to bring the country together to fight the war (which would require him to take responsibility, which I think he is physically incapable of doing) is also something that will not soon be forgotten. Anoyher example is the view of the army as right winged and therefore aligned with the right-most forces in society. In the US, the Army is a very right wing force. That’s simply not true in Israel. Prominent leftists, like Yitzhak Rabin or Ehud Barack, had distinguished military careers before going into politics. This is turning into a monster of a post. Here’s the TL,DR. You are absolutely right about Ben Gvir and Smotrich, and it is for the reasons you point out that having them anywhere near Israeli politics is such a disaster. They are the metastisized form of the Settler movement which as we previously established is a cancer on Israeli society. The growth of their factions is absolutely exceedingly disturbing, and in peacetime it should be Israel’s number one priority to fight this internal extremism. (In war time this should be Israel’s number two priority; it’s still extremely important and is key to preventing the next war). But _extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich do not have a material impact on the behavior of the IDF_. Preventing them from ever getting their hands on the IDF is of paramount importance because you’re absolutely right about the evil and maniacal things they would do with it, and that’s why I’m a big supporter of the huge protests that have been rocking the nation over the months leading up to the war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1854 "2023-11-24T16:45:06Z")
Alright, after all that… while I was writing that wall of text, 24 hostages have been brought out of Gaza and into Egypt where they were handed over to Red Cross doctors to look them over before they return to Israel. There are 13 Israeli citizens being released as part of a deal with Israel, 10 Thai foreign workers released through a separate deal between Thailand and Hamas negotiated by Iran, and 1 Filipino foreign worker (I couldn’t find under what deal they were released at a quick glance). Finally some good news! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1855 "2023-11-24T16:49:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich do not have a material impact on the behavior of the IDF_. I devoutly hope you are right. But from over here, watching Israel shut down hospitals and destroy half of Gaza, i have to wonder who is really in charge, and what their goals are. They want to get into tunnels under the hospital? Okay. How does shutting down the whole hospital even help that cause? I’m a Jew. Even by ultra-Orthodox standards, I’m a Jew. I grew up in a very pro-Israel environment. But like @Broomstick , I’m getting pretty uncomfortable. > [@Babale](#): > > Finally some good news! Yes, that’s excellent news! I’m glad to hear it’s happened. I hope for more such news in coming days. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1856 "2023-11-24T17:14:02Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > They want to get into tunnels under the hospital? Okay. How does shutting down the whole hospital even help that cause? If the IDF sits inside an active hospital and does battle with Hamas forces underneath, they put the civilians at risk when Hamas fights back. Just like Hamas does when they fight the IDF out of a hospital. Since the IDF can’t move the entrance to the tunnels, the field of battle is set. All they can do is ensure civilians aren’t in the way. The war isn’t over in northern Gaza just because the IDF took over the surface in a given region (and note, much of Northern Gaza, including the city itself, is still _not_ under IDF control as of the ceasefire). There are many battles ahead, and the IDF cannot keep these hospitals safe. Let’s say the IDF decides to keep Al Shifa operational. They bring in troops and fortify the buildings around the hospital, and they build fortified positions on top of the tunnel entrances. Hamas then attacks the hospital, killing many civilians, and explains that the IDF was using them as human shields. Isn’t that exactly what Hamas does? So maybe instead the IDF fights and defeats Hamas but then abandons the hospital. Well, what stops Hamas from moving right back in and attacking the IDF again, necessitating a response that will again kill civilians? Here is a map showing areas under IDF control, according to one of these open source intelligence guys on Twitter who has been pretty reliable during the Ukraine war. > Note that Al Shifa is just a couple blocks from areas uncontrolled by Israel; the Indonesian Hospital is on the front lines; Jabalia is completely away from IDF controlled territory. How on Earth is Israel meant to keep civilians safe at a location like that? Do you think the IDF sets up field hospitals for their own troops in those kinds of locations? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1857 "2023-11-24T17:23:09Z")
> **[13 נשים וילדים שנחטפו שוחררו מהרצועה והגיעו לישראל](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/war-2023/2023-11-24/ty-article-live/0000018b-fe2f-d99b-a7eb-ffbf3e4e0000)** > > הארץ The Israeli hostages are back in Israel. Three women with children and the rest are elderly women (one is the grandma of one of the kids…) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1858 "2023-11-24T17:51:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How on Earth is Israel meant to keep civilians safe at a location like that? Do you think the IDF sets up field hospitals for their own troops in those kinds of locations? Perhaps by evacuating in an orderly fashion, using Israeli ambulances, to a hospital under Israeli control. Many hospitalized people become unsafe when a hospital loses power. People in intensive care are likely to die within minutes of a hospital losing power. My guess is those people would have been a great deal safer with soldiers shooting outside the building, or even in the hallways, than they were the way things played out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=88)