# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 90
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1899 "2023-11-25T23:17:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > EDIT: Gaza didn’t attack Israel, Hamas did. Hamas is the government of Gaza and consists of it’s citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1900 "2023-11-25T23:19:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Hamas’ actions don’t justify what you suggest, I suggest they don’t attack Israel. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1901 "2023-11-25T23:31:11Z")
Most Gazans are not members of Hamas. Hamas attacked Israel, not Gaza. Collective blame is always wrong. Gazans are not responsible for the attack, except if they took part or otherwise provided material support for the attack. Most Gazans don’t qualify. They’re just people. Most of them just want to live their lives in peace with a decent chance at a good life for their children. Just like most humans everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1902 "2023-11-25T23:33:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Collective responsibility is always wrong. Gazans are not responsible for the attack, except if they took part or otherwise provided material support for the attack. Most Gazans don’t qualify. > > They’re just people. Most of them just want to live their lives in peace with a decent chance at a good life for their children. Just like most humans everywhere. Good luck with that. It applies to every single war ever fought. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1903 "2023-11-25T23:37:47Z")
And there’s nothing special about this war that would justify ethnic cleansing or any other atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1904 "2023-11-25T23:45:09Z")
Which a great reason for Hamas not to attack Israel. Everybody wins. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1905 "2023-11-26T00:04:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which a great reason for Hamas not to attack Israel There are lots of reasons for Hamas not to attack us, but even if they do that doesn’t mean we need to violate our own principles and commit an ethnic cleansing. And to be frank with you, there are enough people out there in the world beyond this board - some deluded fools, some raging antisemites - who run around insisting that Israel is doing the horrible things you’re proposing. In that context, your misguided suggestions are the last thing we need. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1906 "2023-11-26T00:32:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Good luck with that. It applies to every single war ever fought. And that’s why, in an age of weapons of mass destruction, we have laws of war to protect civilians from excessive attacks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1907 "2023-11-26T01:03:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which a great reason for Hamas not to attack Israel. Everybody wins. That doesn’t seem to be a point of contention in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1908 "2023-11-26T01:35:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And to be frank with you, there are enough people out there in the world beyond this board - some deluded fools, some raging antisemites - who run around insisting that Israel is doing the horrible things you’re proposing. In that context, your misguided suggestions are the last thing we need. I’m proposing that Hamas not attack Israel. It’s not complicated. there’s nothing misguided about it. The people of Gaza knew what Hamas represented and voted them into power. They are a part of Hamas just as Germans were part of the Nazi regime they supported. If they don’t understand they are human shields for their government then that’s an amazing lack of reality. If they can’t separate themselves from Hamas physically and politically then they need to leave until it’s sorted out because every square inch of Gaza is Hamas’s base of operations. there’s no base to attack, ships to sink or aircraft to shoot down. There is no safe zone to fight around like some kind of Queensberry Rules of war. It’s not life as usually while the fighting goes on. Gaza isn’t blessed with some unique character that differentiates it from Berlin, or Tokyo or any other city in a war zone. Unless you have a magic answer to defeating Hamas this is gong to continue as is until it is defeated. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1909 "2023-11-26T01:59:05Z")
Your solution really seems to fit right into the category of “clear, simple, and wrong.” And to extend such logic would empty countries like Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia, Myanmar, a good chunk of countries in West Africa, and others. Millions of people around the world are stuck in areas at war, with no more actual control over their government than the Gazan people and with no more of a way to get out. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1910 "2023-11-26T02:00:20Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > In my opinion, saying “Gaza voted for Hamas” should be banned as an argument in this thread. I think it’s a gray area. On the one hand, someone who was strongly pro-Palestinian might argue that Hamas is completely separate from Gaza, and attacking Gaza to get at Hamas is like attacking Chicago because the Chicago Mafia is headquartered there. On the other hand, someone might state “well, Hamas is the government of Gaza, therefore they are totally interchangeable, and invading Gaza to get at Hamas is just, well, an invasion in wartime”. I don’t think either is accurate. And I think anyone who espouses either of those positions as if it is immutably true without qualification is either ignorant or not arguing in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1911 "2023-11-26T02:14:55Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Your solution really seems to fit right into the category of “clear, simple, and wrong.” And to extend such logic would empty countries like Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia, Myanmar, a good chunk of countries in West Africa, and others. each one of those countries is in a state of perpetual war. The floor has always been open for a solution. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1912 "2023-11-26T02:17:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Which a great reason for Hamas not to attack Israel. Everybody wins. That isn’t going to happen. Especially after, well, during this latest war, most people in Gaza understandably hate Israelis, indeed, Jews. Whenever they get the chance, hamas will kill Israelis. There are reports of Gaza citizens who were not hamas terrorists crossing over during the attack, stealing and murdering. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1913 "2023-11-26T02:32:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That isn’t going to happen. Especially after, well, during this latest war, most people in Gaza understandably hate Israelis, indeed, Jews. Whenever they get the chance, hamas will kill Israelis. There are reports of Gaza citizens who were not hamas terrorists crossing over during the attack, stealing and murdering. I would expect most Israelis, Especially after, well, during this latest war, understandably hate Gazans. Given a choice between enjoying themselves at a music festival or attacking Gaza in a hostage/murdering frenzy they chose a music festival. If the people of Gaza want to live in peace at some point in the future they need to understand what that involves. They need a government that does not want to wipe Israel off the map and that isn’t just lip service. They have to recognize Israel and not poison the well by brainwashing their children to hate. This is where the next generation of Hamas comes from. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1914 "2023-11-26T05:50:31Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Just a reminder who the IDF is up against: > > [https://www.hamas.com](https://www.hamas.com) FYI, that is a [propaganda site](https://www.newarab.com/news/hamascom-israels-latest-propaganda-tool) promoting an Israeli point of view. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …that hamas dot com website is not-safe-for-work, and is almost certainly disinfo, not a “real” Hamas website. Correct. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1915 "2023-11-26T06:26:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > then they need to leave until it’s sorted out > [@Magiver](#): > > Gaza isn’t blessed with some unique character that differentiates it from Berlin, or Tokyo or any other city in a war zone. Other than the blockade _physically preventing Palestinians from leaving_, that is… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1916 "2023-11-26T10:43:50Z")
Indeed. If you’re comparing Gaza to other urban warfare locations the apt comparison is not Berlin or Tokyo, it’s Leningrad during the Siege. Palestinians can not physically leave Gaza. There are physical barriers. The IDF also surrounds them. As I keep saying, under the circumstances telling them to leave is a sick joke. They can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1917 "2023-11-26T12:21:09Z")
…video footage of Indonesian Hospital. Spoiled because it does very briefly show (covered) dead bodies in a makeshift open-air morgue. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ahIPqtrrg/](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ahIPqtrrg/) News article about the Indonesian Hospital raid: > **[Gaza’s Indonesian Hospital in ruins after Israeli raid, days-long siege](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/25/gazas-indonesian-hospital-in-ruins-after-israeli-raid-days-long-siege)** > > Nurses recall horror of Israeli raid and interrogations, saying they were beaten and humiliated. The state of the hospital speaks for itself. The IDF stormed the hospital before the ceasefire, interrogated the people inside the hospital, scanned faces, then left. Verified footage of Al Shifa, a week after IDF took over the hospital, but after they left during the ceasefire: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/blb0pxrwY58/maxresdefault.jpg "Dire conditions at al-Shifa Hospital revealed during Gaza pause | AJ #shorts") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blb0pxrwY58) Footage that I couldn’t verify, but matches footage from the Al-Jazeera coverage: > Reports of medical equipment and supplies destroyed at both hospitals. From the 23rd November Reliefweb Update: > [@](#): > > Only 8 hospitals in the south ( Deir Albalah, Khan Younis and Rafah) are partially functional. > In addition, 2 hospitals in Gaza and the north are functioning at an extremely limited basic capacity. > **[oPt Emergency Situation Update 14 (As of 23 November 2023, 17:00) - occupied...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/opt-emergency-situation-update-14-23-november-2023-1700)** > > Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Coordination, Food and Nutrition and more; published on 24 Nov 2023 by WHO There were 21 hospitals prior to the start of this conflict. There are now only 8 partially functional hospitals in the south, and 2 hospitals in the north that are, from reports, operating effectively as first aid stations. But that was from five days ago. It certainly hasn’t gotten any better. Pointless, needless, destruction and death. The very idea that these hospitals were the “frontline” don’t make any sense in light of the fact that the IDF have just abandoned them, and in the case of the Indonesian Hospital almost immediately after a week-long siege. After the ceasefire? They will just return to the hospitals and occupy them again. I stand by everything I’ve said in this thread. The hospitals should _not_ have lost their protected status. But once they did, and then once the hospitals were taken over, the IDF had an _obligation_ to keep the hospitals running. What they have done here is _unconscionable_. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1918 "2023-11-26T14:16:33Z")
Given that Hamas’s overall approach often seems nihilistic, I wonder what kind of calculations govern its positions in the hostage negotiations – whether to release, how many to release, which ones to release, how to handle the non-Israeli hostages, and so on. (Granted, we can see that adult male Israeli hostages haven’t yet been released.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=89) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=91)