# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1959 "2023-11-28T13:32:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > A different order–one limiting gatherings to no more than twenty people, say–would make sense to me. The way Gvir said it–“There are to be no expressions of joy…expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism”–does not seem reasonable. > > That’s because he’s a dick who has no idea what he’s doing, who probably took a recommendation from a professional and rephrased it in the form of an asshole. Sadly, he’s a dick who has power. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1960 "2023-11-28T13:50:17Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Sadly, he’s a dick who has power. Palestinians celebrating terrorists and terrorism is how dicks like him get power. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1961 "2023-11-28T14:11:52Z")
Let’s just say that it’s a vicious cycle and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1962 "2023-11-28T14:20:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A different order–one limiting gatherings to no more than twenty people, say–would make sense to me. The way Gvir said it–“There are to be no expressions of joy…expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism”–does not seem reasonable. That’s because Ben Gvir is a populist, messianic, and racist warmonger. He certainly intends for it to comes across this way because he is an agitator. Your phrasing is much better; getting Ben Gvir out of office and the sort of person who comprehends that in is key. > [@Alessan](#): > > That’s because he’s a dick who has no idea what he’s doing, who probably took a recommendation from a professional and rephrased it in the form of an asshole. This, too. Remember, this is the guy who pissed his pants, pulled his weapon, and squeaked like a chew toy when an Arabic security guard walked up to him in a parking structure. He is a joke of a human being (not a funny joke, a very depressing and offensive one) and among the biggest security threats to the country. Bibi is a criminal for many reasons, but putting Ben Gvir anywhere near power is high on that list. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1963 "2023-11-28T14:24:15Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Palestinians celebrating terrorists and terrorism is how dicks like him get power. Celebrating terrorists and terrorism is not realy something Ben Gvir has the high ground on. Lest we forget, in his youth Ben Gvir stole Rabin’s car’s decal and announced on TV that “if we can reach the car we can reach the man”, shortly before his buddy Yigal Amir murdered Rabin. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1964 "2023-11-28T14:53:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Celebrating terrorists and terrorism is not realy something Ben Gvir has the high ground on. I never suggested he did. But history has shown that Israelis had been willing to elect left-wing peace governments…only to run back to the right wing when the Palestinians launch a new wave of attacks. It’s a “vicious cycle”, @Alessan only because one side won’t stop acting vicious, no matter how willing the other side is to end that “cycle”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1965 "2023-11-28T14:54:52Z")
Make no mistake - taking a reasonable policy (no big street celebrations at a time when the West Bank is a powder keg) and phrasing it in such a way that it makes average Palestinians like the ones quoted in @Broomstick’s article feel like they are being targeted by Israel _is the point_. Ben Gvir is just one of the many wedges driven into Israeli society by Netanyahu over the last few years, in an effort to divide and conquer. How does Bibi survive so many political crises when Likud is now an empty shell of its former self inhabited only by Bibi and a group of toadies selected not by their skill but by how low they will debase themselves for Bibi? How has he managed to scrape together a ruling coalition again and again? The answer is, by sowing division in Israeli society. Ben Gvir and Smotrich are easily visible to you Americans on the outside, because they tap into divides you can understand - Religious vs Secular; Two State vs One; Settlements vs Withdrawl. But that is only the tip of the iceberg. Did you know that in recent years Bibi has somehow become the icon of the Mizrahi community in Israel? Yes, the Mizrahi/Ashkenazi divide is alive and well in Israel (or was it brought back from the dead through unholy necromantic rituals to save Bibi from jail?), and Likud is riding roughshod over the left wing parties by convincing Mizrahi Israelis that the racist Ashkenazis on the Left will never understand the Mizrahi community and is in fact going to destroy Mizrahi culture. Division between Israel and the Palestinians. Division between Gaza and the West Bank. Division between Orthodox and Secular Jewish Israelis. Division between Jewish Israelis and Israeli Arabs. Division between Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Israelis. And most of all, division between the Right and Left. Bibi Netanyahu is a _master_ of divide and conquer. Ben Gvir is but one of his many tools in this craft, which he uses to ruin Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1966 "2023-11-28T15:56:18Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > But history has shown that Israelis had been willing to elect left-wing peace governments…only to run back to the right wing when the Palestinians launch a new wave of attacks. It’s a “vicious cycle”, @Alessan only because one side won’t stop acting vicious, no matter how willing the other side is to end that “cycle”. It is true that Israel has made some very sweet offers that were unceremoniously rejected, starting with 1948 where Israel would have happily accepted the partition plan and none of this would have been a problem if a bunch of neighboring countries didn’t decide to gamble double-or-nothing. But it is _also_ true that if you are Joe Gaza, 18 years old and raised on Hamas propaganda at a UNRWA school, seeing Ben Gvir go on TV and act like a caricature straight out of the Hamas propaganda from your high school curriculum is not helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1967 "2023-11-28T18:53:56Z")
Looks like Day 5 of the ceasefire is on! Ten women are on their way back to Israel; no kids this time. There are also reports of a number of hostages who are confirmed to be dead (Hamas may eventually negotiate to release their bodies in exchange for prisoners - although I hope Israel stops making that particular deal.) It is estimated that Hamas still holds nine children, and 146 hostages total. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1968 "2023-11-28T19:05:58Z")
I imagine bodies for prisoners is worth it for their families. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1969 "2023-11-28T19:18:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I imagine bodies for prisoners is worth it for their families Maybe so, but public policy should not be decided by grieving parents to ease their own pain. To Gilad Shalit and his parents, his release may have been worth 1,027 prisoners, many of whom returned to terrorism and (before Oct 7) were directly responsible for at least half a dozen Israeli deaths in the years since. And after Oct 7… well, one of the prisoners released was Yahya Sinwar. Was _that_ worth it? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1970 "2023-11-28T20:03:05Z")
I don’t believe deals should be made about hostages, either but people wanted their loved ones back. I do wish released terrorists (not kids who threw rocks at soldiers) could be injected upon release with something to infect other terrorists with whom they come in contact. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1971 "2023-11-28T20:36:32Z")
So…biological warfare combined with collective punishment (unless your magical disease will only infect terrorists)? Or are we using Magiver’s definition of Gazan = Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1972 "2023-11-28T20:47:25Z")
I’m thinking terrorists taking covid into the tunnels. It is of course immoral. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1973 "2023-11-28T21:26:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But it is _also_ true that if you are Joe Gaza, 18 years old and raised on Hamas propaganda at a UNRWA school, seeing Ben Gvir go on TV and act like a caricature straight out of the Hamas propaganda from your high school curriculum is not helpful. The problem with that statement is that to the 18-year-old Joe Gaza, Ehud Barak sounds no different from Itamar Ben-Gvir. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1974 "2023-11-28T21:40:10Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The problem with that statement is that to the 18-year-old Joe Gaza, Ehud Barak sounds no different from Itamar Ben-Gvir Even if we accept this statement as fact for the sake of argument, that’d be on them, not on us; using that as an excuse to actually become like Ben Gvir would be on us. (Just as supporting Hamas is on Hamas supporters, no matter how “oppressed” they or the useful idiots Hamas grooms in the West claim they are). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1975 "2023-11-28T23:51:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@DPRK](#): > > > > photographed walking e.g. along Tel-Aviv beaches wearing casual clothing like shorts and a T-shirt but also a > > Soldiers on leave. OK. But, if you are really on leave, is there really no option to secure your service weapon wherever you stashed your uniform and whatever else? Seems like it would be awkward swimming with it, dancing with it, or losing it in a restaurant bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1976 "2023-11-29T02:48:23Z")
Only American deputies lose firearms in a bath room. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1977 "2023-11-29T02:58:25Z")
When I was a kid in Rhodesia, my dad was in the army. We traveled with his FN next to my mum in the front seat; his Uzi next to the gear lever in our car. It was normal. We kids knew not to fuck with the guns, but they were everywhere, whether on duty or not. War is fucking shit. (Although it was really cool the one time he turned up in a [Leopard mine-proof vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_security_vehicle) and gave my brother and I a short drive in it) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1978 "2023-11-29T11:35:23Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > OK. But, if you are really on leave, is there really no option to secure your service weapon wherever you stashed your uniform and whatever else? Seems like it would be awkward swimming with it, dancing with it, or losing it in a restaurant bathroom. Sure, most people just keep them at home - I always did. But maybe the guy in the picture was on his way to or from his base, or maybe he didn’t have somewhere safe to put it, or maybe he just felt safer carrying it. Who knows? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=94)