# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 97
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2039 "2023-11-30T18:26:53Z")
The deal was on the table and Israel was the hold up not Hamas. [Link](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFEo9r0WhlLkQQETZXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1701396972/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.vox.com%2fworld-politics%2f2023%2f11%2f27%2f23976383%2fisrael-hamas-war-hostage-ceasefire-deal-extension/RK=2/RS=BseGXt1tFdIiO2dR5biy6c0GKSk-) “This is a deal that has essentially been [on the table](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-all-civilian-hostages-could-be-freed-from-gaza-in-days-if-fighting-paused-qatari-negotiators-say-12993168) for about a month, and according to the [Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other), negotiations were already happening before Israel launched its ground attacks on Gaza. Israel had defined its twin objectives as eliminating Hamas and bringing the hostages back, but experts noted that the former had been the priority until political dynamics led to an increased willingness among Israeli leadership to accept a truce to bring some hostages home. “Public pressure led [Netanyahu](https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history) to agree to a deal that he refused until now,” journalist Yossi Verter wrote in [Haaretz’s Hebrew edition](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politi/2023-11-21/ty-article/.highlight/0000018b-f345-d558-a3eb-f74fcbf70000).” ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2040 "2023-11-30T18:33:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The deal was on the table and Israel was the hold up not Hamas. So let me get this right - Terrorist invade your country, slaughter and rape thousands of innocent civilians, and kidnap hundreds more as hostages, and then say “let’s make a deal. We’ll give you these hostages back if you give us a bunch of our people back that you are holding. And then we’ll call it even!”. In your opinion the proper response would just be “OK, sure!” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2041 "2023-11-30T18:43:11Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > “This is a deal that has essentially been [on the table](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-all-civilian-hostages-could-be-freed-from-gaza-in-days-if-fighting-paused-qatari-negotiators-say-12993168) for about a month, and according to the [Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other), negotiations were already happening before Israel launched its ground attacks on Gaza. Israel had defined its twin objectives as eliminating Hamas and bringing the hostages back, but experts noted that the former had been the priority until political dynamics led to an increased willingness among Israeli leadership to accept a truce to bring some hostages home. “Public pressure led [Netanyahu](https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history) to agree to a deal that he refused until now,” journalist Yossi Verter wrote in [Haaretz’s Hebrew edition](https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politi/2023-11-21/ty-article/.highlight/0000018b-f345-d558-a3eb-f74fcbf70000).” What a strange and twisted read of the situation. According to your link, Qatar _claimed_ that if Israel unilaterally stopped the fighting then _maybe_ they’d be able to get Hamas to agree swap hostages for prisoners. In other words, Israel would have to stop fighting and take Hamas at their words that after the fighting stopped then they’d come to the table to negotiate a trade. What Israel told them is, there is no ceasefire without a hostage deal. So there was a deal on the table - Israel stops fighting and Hamas will negotiate - and Israel rejected that deal (as they should have, because that’s a _really shitty deal_). Then once the IDF smashed Hamas’s HQs at Al Shifa and Jabalia and a couple other places for a while, Hamas got spooked enough that they agreed to a much better deal: ceasefire and prisoners in exchange for hostages. The article you linked equivocates between Deal 1 (Ceasefire in exchange for further negotiations) and Deal 2 (Ceasefire in exchange for a specifically agreed upon hostage for prisoner swap). That’s _incredibly dishonest_ of the authors of the article. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2042 "2023-11-30T18:45:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The article you linked equivocates between Deal 1 (Ceasefire in exchange for further negotiations) and Deal 2 (Ceasefire in exchange for a specifically agreed upon hostage for prisoner swap). That’s _incredibly dishonest_ of the authors of the article. I only said there was an offer on the table. And, indeed there was. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2043 "2023-11-30T18:46:13Z")
I wonder how many Palestinian women are in Israeli custody. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2044 "2023-11-30T18:46:19Z")
From your link: > [@](#): > > told Sky News he is increasingly optimistic about a breakthrough, adding: "Our target is to release all of the civilian hostages. That’s what we’re working on, and that’s what we want to achieve. > > “We remain hopeful. We do the best that we can trying to get everyone soon and hopefully we can achieve that goal within the upcoming days.” > > But the negotiator said there is a major caveat to that optimism: For further progress to secure more releases, there needs to be a pause in [**the fighting**](https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-gaza-ground-raid-biggest-incursion-of-conflict-so-far-as-idf-prepares-battlefield-12992876). > > Dr Mohammed added: "If the mediator wants to perform its task in the best way possible as a state, then we need to reach a period of calm. “Give Hamas a ceasefire and then we can maybe get them to negotiate” is not the same thing as “We agree to a 4 day ceasefire in exchnage for the following hostages being released on day 1, 2, 3, and 4; the ceasefire can be extended by 1 day per 10 additional hostages; each hostage will also earn 10 prisoners”. Comparing the two is either laughably simple minded, or exceedingly scarily purposefully dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2045 "2023-11-30T18:49:37Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I only said there was an offer on the table. And, indeed there was. You said: > [@Crane](#): > > The deal was on the table and Israel was the hold up not Hamas. THE deal - 4 days of ceasefire and Y prisoners for X hostages and an additional day of ceasefire and 3 prisoners per 10 hostages released - was _not_ on the table. A DIFFERENT deal - ceasefire for vague promises that Hamas will think about negotiating at some unspecified point in the future - was. So if you meant that A (incredibly shitty) DEAL was on the table, I agree; if you meant that THE DEAL was on the table, that’s incredibly wrong, and you should be wary of consuming such dishonest sources of information. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2046 "2023-11-30T18:54:02Z")
I said that a negotiating position had been placed by intermediaries representing Hamas (deal on table) and that Israel did not engage with the opportunity. Obviously had the two engaged the details of exchange would have been different. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2047 "2023-11-30T19:02:36Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I said that a negotiating position had been placed by intermediaries representing Hamas (deal on table) and that Israel did not engage with the opportunity. We can see _exactly_ what you said before you walked back half your claims right here: > [@Crane](#): > > Hamas offered early on to exchange civilian hostages for Israeli held Palestinian civilians. Israel refused > [@Crane](#): > > The deal was on the table and Israel was the hold up not Hamas. Your article _does not support either claim_. 1. Hamas offered nothing; _Qatar_ said that _if Israel agreed to a ceasefire_ then Qatar is optimistic that _they_ could make things happen. That’s not an offer from Hamas; that’s an assurance from Qatar that _if Israel gives Hamas what they want_, then Qatar could _maybe convince Hamas to make an offer at that time_. 2. “The” deal was not on the table. A vague offer that _if_ Israel stops fighting _then_ Qatar would _maybe_ be able to convince Hamas to negotiate was. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2048 "2023-11-30T19:06:34Z")
It was an offer to negotiate a prisoner exchange and Israel did not engage. However, I yield and apologize. My argument was not sufficiently specific. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2049 "2023-11-30T19:11:33Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > It was an offer to negotiate a prisoner exchange and Israel did not engage. It was an _assurance_ that Qatar could _influence_ Hamas to negotiate, not a real offer; and it was contingent on Israel ending its attack on Hamas. Instead of relying on vague assurances about what a hostile dictatorship might or might not be able to influence a terrorist group to do, Israel made its own offer - Hamas could come and negotiate a ceasefire and hostage exchange at any time they wished, but until they did so the war would continue. **Hamas** did not choose to engage until Israel had started smashing its HQs in person. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2050 "2023-11-30T19:12:28Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > It was an offer to negotiate a prisoner exchange… From a party that was not Hamas, nor Palestinian, nor held any Israeli hostages, nor had the authority to force Hamas to release anyone. This was not any sort of an “offer” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2051 "2023-11-30T19:21:15Z")
We seem to agree that the channel for negotiation was open before Israel took action against Gaza and that Israel did later engage in the presence of outside pressure. That is well documented. Speculation on the potential result is just that, speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2052 "2023-11-30T19:22:28Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > We seem to agree that the channel for negotiation… To the contrary, you seem to be the only person in this thread advancing that position. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2053 "2023-11-30T19:26:01Z")
Please demonstrate that no channel for negotiation was offered (on the table) and that Israel did not later yield to external pressure resulting in negotiations and an exchange. I believe that is what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2054 "2023-11-30T19:30:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Please demonstrate that no channel for negotiation was offered (on the table) According to your own link, Qatar said that they couldn’t make any more progress without a ceasefire. So the channel for negotiation was closed at that time even if we take Qatar at their word. > [@Crane](#): > > Israel did not later yield to external pressure resulting in negotiations and an exchange Israel initially said that they would not agree to a ceasefire without a hostage deal. And indedd, Israel did not agree to a ceasefire until Hamas was prepared to exchange hostages. Israel’s position never changed; Hamas’ did (once they took enough of a beating they negotiated a hostage exchange without waiting for a ceasefire in order to start the negotiation). > [@Crane](#): > > I believe that is what happened. Many people believe many things, but this belief does not match reality. In this case, Israel said they wouldn’t agree to a ceasefire unless it came as part of a hostage deal, and they didn’t; Hamas said they wouldn’t negotiate until Israel agreed to a ceasefire, but after taking enough damage they did negotiate a hostage exhange during ongoing hostilities. How on Earth does that tell you that _Israel_ gave im to external pressure? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2055 "2023-11-30T19:31:34Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Please demonstrate that no channel for negotiation… You want me to demonstrate a negative? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2056 "2023-11-30T19:35:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I wonder how many Palestinian women are in Israeli custody Do you think that their being women makes them automatically innocent? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2057 "2023-11-30T19:37:42Z")
Hamas originally wanted to exchange the hostages for all the women and children prisoners Israel had. I wonder how many they are. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/2058 "2023-11-30T19:38:27Z")
Ah. I see what you mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=96) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=98)