# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 1212
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/1212 "2023-11-04T23:31:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It doesn’t matter how many times we say all of those things, you won’t listen to us unless we accept your _exact narrative frame_. This is not a “narrative” frame in the sense of an arbitrary perspective. It means dealing with reality rather than stating ideals. The problem here is not that we need to identify the psychopaths. We know who they are. Civilians are not dying because _Israel_ wants civilians to die. So just stating the absolute truth “it’s awful that innocent people are dying” contributes nothing to the debate, and shouting it _louder_ is not a morally superior position. What matters is finding an answer to the _difficult_ problem where conflicting absolute ideals _cannot_ be reconciled. A war can have a just objective, but no war can be fought without harming innocents. Unless you are prepared to engage with the difficult problem of how Israel can achieve their just objective in some better way, or to present a cogent argument that they should not pursue this objective at all _because the cost outweighs the benefit_, Israel will (quite reasonably) ignore you. --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317)._