Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

…they believe it because this is what they see is happening to them. They can’t go to work. They can’t earn a living. They are under siege. No power, no water, no food, no medicine, no hospital care. Forced to relocate.

None of that relates to the concept of Nakba or to your blood libel claim that the IDF is hitting civilian targets with no Hamas presence just to kill civilians and drive Palestinians out of Gaza.

@Banquet_Bear

What exactly do you think the endgame is here? Every time I’ve mentioned ending the siege to you here, you’ve said that they can’t, because that would mean rockets could get smuggled in.

So how does the siege end? When do we start to provide the basics of humanity again? You obviously don’t think now is the right time. When is the right time?

To be clear, aid is coming in; the pace and quantity should continue to increase as the IDF gains control over the Gaza strip.

@Banquet_Bear

But we aren’t having that discussion here. For the last day it seems people have been talking casually about “bombing them into submission.”

I certainly haven’t, and perhaps I am wrong but afaik the posters who have aren’t Israeli. It’s part of the “let’s you and him fight” attitude towards the conflict I’ve called out on the American right. It certainly isn’t the attitude of the IDF.

@Banquet_Bear

There is a logical disconnect here. There isn’t an immediate future that doesn’t involve a prolonged occupation of Gaza. And as horrible as life was under occupation before October the 7th, it will be infinitely more miserable now.

Occupation of Gaza by Israel for some length of time will be necessary, but the goal should definitely not be a prolonged occupation of Gaza by Israel, which would be disastrous. The best case scenario for an interim government would be if it was run by a coalition of other Arab states, as I think this would help with legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinian people, which is crucial here; but I also doubt that any Arab states would want to entangle themselves with this situation. But an Israeli occupation or an Israeli backed interim government is probably not practical because anything too closely associated with Israel will undoubtedly be rejected.

The longer term goal is an independent Palestinian state. That has to be the end goal.

@Banquet_Bear

For Palestinians to continue living in Gaza would either mean a more oppressive regime than the one they already live under

There is absolutely no reason for an Israeli occupation or an interim government to be more oppressive than Hamas. Israel never withdrew from the West Bank, but for all their flaws the PA is certainly not more oppressive than Hamas.

@Banquet_Bear

continued ongoing resistance

That path means death, as surely as the path of doubling down on the settlements does for Israel.

@Banquet_Bear

or they leave. There is no other option

Or they accept the existence of Israel and build a government that will pursue a two state solution instead.

@Banquet_Bear

If you had a platform right now to the Palestinian people, what would you say to reassure them that they would be allowed to go home? What would you tell them the siege would be over? When could they safely return to the hospitals? When will they be able to return so they can dig through the rubble to pull out their family?

I would tell them that our war is with Hamas and not with them, and urge them to get to safety, away from any buildings that Hamas is making use of; I would urge them to start thinking about the sort of Palestine they want to build when Hamas is gone.

@Banquet_Bear

Palestinians are calling this the second Nakba is a fact

I know. I am asking why you are making the claim that Palestinians will not be allowed to return, or that the IDF is purposefuly targeting civilians to drive them away. Not why Palestinians who are subjected to Hamas propaganda think so; why you are making that claim here.

@Banquet_Bear

I don’t see any reason why we should assume the IDF are acting in good faith. The siege breaks international law. The siege and attacks on the hospitals breach international law. I’ll judge them on their actions. And they’ve shown a total disregard to the Geneva Conventions and the rules of war.

Does “guilty until proven innocent” apply to all countries or just Israel?