# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 3376
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3376 "2024-02-07T07:09:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (1) internal investigations and repercussions. Israel is a nation of laws. All too often, even in progressive democracies, those who commit atrocities in war go unpunished… but it’s certainly not never …I’ll encourage you to once again read the submission to the ICJ, starting from page 59 titled " Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others". This all starts at the top. When the President of Isreal says ": “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.” Or when the Minister of Defense says “No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly”, and the Minister of Heritage says ““The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes” and the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset says “we all have one common goal — erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth”…do you not believe them? And why do you think that merely being a “nation of laws” would mean those that commit atrocities would go unpunished? Humanitarian agencies have been reporting the history of the IDF beating and humiliating and torturing detainees for _decades_. Being a “nation of laws” doesn’t prevent that. Again, you are arguing from incredulity. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (2) basic morality and ethics. Most people, even most members of militaries, are not cold-blooded baby murderers. Here is a video with a list of names of all the children that have been killed so far in this war. > **[Palestinian children killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza | Al Jazeera Newsfeed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlCzT9_YE9Y%2F)** > > Here is a list of the names we know, from more than 11,500 children killed during Israel’s war on Gaza. Even this is less than half of those killed. Subscrib... For the first 35 seconds of the video are all babies that died before their first birthday. Some of died even before their parents _gave them a name_. There are 11,500 names on that list. There are more that are still missing under the rubble. Every day, we can add another hundred or so names to that list. Thats just from the _bombing_. Sickness, disease, starvation, famine, cancer, diabetes, all things that are almost impossible to treat right now because of a broken healthcare system, a siege at the borders, and a deliberate campaign to break international support for the only humanitarian agency still effectively operating at scope on the ground. Everybody accepts that in war there can be collateral damage. This _isn’t collateral damage_. Not at this rate. Not at this scale. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And decisions like “let’s attack that hospital” are made at at least somewhat of a remove, enough that they are not purely determined by in-the-moment passion. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to repeat this: but under the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law, hospitals are _not allowed to be targeted_. They can’t be shot at. They can’t be bombed. They can’t be put under siege. You can only attack a hospital under a very limited set of circumstances and not _once_ has the evidence produced by the Israeli government ever met that threshold according to all the international lawyers that have looked at Israeli claims. And even if they did: Israel are obliged under International Humanitarian Law to do as little damage as possible to the hospital, to do everything within their power to keep them operating once any threat had been eliminated. Israel has not done that. They did the opposite. They deliberately damaged the infrastructure so that the hospitals would be unable to be bought back to full strength. They kicked out patients, they expelled medical staff, they disappeared doctors. Doing this once would have been a war crime. They’ve done this multiple times. To 23 different hospitals. They have three under siege at the moment. They are going to do this all over again. War crimes. Every single one of them. And they’ve broken the healthcare system. Once again, you are arguing from incredulity. “Basic morality and ethics” have been things that armies have ignored for centuries. Israel isn’t exceptional here. What matters is what they are doing. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > but do you think that to a country that has been such a flashpoint for controversy as Israel, international public opinion just doesn’t matter at all? If you live in America and wanted to vote for a party that wasn’t in lock-step with Israel, who would you vote for? You’ve got Biden, who many consider is aiding and abetting a genocide and giving Netanyahu a blank check, and you’ve got the Republican challenger, who is undoubtably going to be even worse. In the UK you’ve got Sunak and Starmer who have practically identical policies, same with Canada. Same with most of the “Western democracies.” You’ve seen large-scale attempts to shut down Palestinian protest and voices. People are losing their jobs. Laws are being changed. The media actively suppressing Palestinian voices. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And leave the hostages to be raped and tortured? Do you really believe these were the only two options on the table here? Because I hate to break it to you, but the current Israeli strategy will _not get any of the hostages released_. If Israel want the hostages released, it will happen the same way it happened _the last time_. During a ceasefire, in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, **Hamas attacked Israel.** Look. Israel have been screwing over Palestinians for decades. They regularly detain Palestinians without trial, beat them, abuse them, torture them. They steal their land. They raid their hospitals. Nobody here on these board have defended the Hamas atrocities that happened on October the 7th. I’ve condemned it over and over again. But lets not pretend that this started on that day. Israel had over 1000 Palestinians in administrative detention _before_ October 7th. There was a blockade in place before October 7th. There were Israeli atrocities on Palestinians before October 7th. All have been well documented in this thread over and over again. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, sure Hamas wont surrender, but they could release the hostages and stop the terrorism. Its likely too much to expect Hamas to quit stealing aid and making themselves wealthy while their people starve. But why not surrender the hostages? Because the problem isn’t “Hamas stealing aid.” The problem is Israel _not letting the aid get through._ We know this. Every humanitarian agency on the ground is saying _exactly the same thing_. This isn’t a Hamas problem. It’s an Israel problem. Despite what any IDF spokespeople are saying, Isreal simply aren’t letting the aid in. Not in the amounts that are needed to prevent famine, disease and suffering. And it’s a matter of complying with Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law. Which means the hostages are not to be used as bargaining chips by _either side_. Israel declaring that they “won’t let any food in until the hostages are released” is a _war crime_. It’s a _collective punishment_ of Palestinians civilians in Gaza. That’s downright fucking evil. And it _isn’t going to work._ --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317)._