# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 4772
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4772 "2025-07-20T12:50:06Z")
…there is an extended debate in the Roger Waters thread that has taken it off-topic, so I thought I’d bring it here. I’ll summarise because directly quoting from the pit, especially considering what was said, isn’t appropriate. But please feel free to correct me if you feel my summary isn’t accurate. Babale says that " I’d dispute that torture camps exist." I provided the following citations: > [@Roger Waters is a tankie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/334): > > [https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408\_welcome\_to\_hell](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell) > > [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/israel-un-expert-calls-probe-allegations-torture-and-mistreatment-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/israel-un-expert-calls-probe-allegations-torture-and-mistreatment-against) > > [Palestinian rights group calls for closure of ‘Israeli torture camps’ | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/14/palestinian-rights-group-calls-for-closure-of-israeli-torture-camps) [Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’ | Israel | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/torture-abuse-and-humiliation-palestinians-on-israeli-prison-hell) [Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests   - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/) [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd) [Blindfolded and beaten: Palestinians tell of Israeli jail abuse](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro) [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/05/israeli-prisons-operate-like-torture-camps-for-palestinian-detainees\_6709743\_4.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/05/israeli-prisons-operate-like-torture-camps-for-palestinian-detainees_6709743_4.html) [Palestinian prisoners describe systemic abuse in Israel’s jails | Israel | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/palestinian-prisoners-describe-widespread-abuse-in-israels-jails) [Israel: Palestinians from Gaza held in secret detention describe torture - new testimonies](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-palestinians-gaza-held-secret-detention-describe-torture-new-testimonies) [Israel: Palestinian Healthcare Workers Tortured | Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/08/26/israel-palestinian-healthcare-workers-tortured) So my question here is: do you dispute the testimony that released Palestinians and whistleblowers are giving, do you have any evidence that suggests the contrary, and do the International Red Cross have access to Israeli detention centres to check on prisoner well-being? And if not the Red Cross, what oversight is there? Babale suggests that my assertion that IDF drones are targeting children was a “conspiracy theory.” (for clarity they did not those exact words, the actual words were tad more colourful, but perhaps not appropriate for this forum. ) I provided the following citations. > [@Roger Waters is a tankie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/334): > > [Gaza surgeon describes drones targeting children](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7893vpy2gqo) > > [Israel uses sniper drones in Gaza, eyewitnesses say : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/26/g-s1-35437/israel-sniper-drones-gaza-eyewitnesses) > > [Israel’s war on Gaza is deliberately targeting children – new UN report](https://theconversation.com/israels-war-on-gaza-is-deliberately-targeting-children-new-un-report-252398) [As a surgeon in Gaza, I witnessed hell visited on children. It shames me that Britain played a part in it | Nizam Mamode | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/02/surgeon-gaza-children-britain-sniper-fire-drones-labour-arms-israel) > > [Witnesses say Israel is using sniper drones in Gaza and they're shooting civilians : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/19/nx-s1-5195171/witnesses-say-israel-is-using-sniper-drones-in-gaza-and-theyre-shooting-civilians) > > [‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war) My question to Babale is: do you dispute the testimony here? Do you have any experts that support your assertion that “simple geometry” shows that this isn’t actually happening? Thirdly, Babale disputes my characterisation of a cite I provided from the New York Times and I have to admit that was a tad sloppy on my part. The citation still supports my overall point. That IDF snipers are deliberately targeting children. But because the NYT is paywalled I incorrectly linked to the defence of the evidence editorial, which I had assumed would have been enough to indicate I was referring to the totality of evidence, including the original article. But that was what I intended. Secondly: because the original article was behind a paywall I can’t verify my assertion that it was specifically drones that were doing some of the killing. However, I’ve provided more than enough citations from reputable sources that show that yes, the IDF have sniper drones, and secondly, testimonials from reputable people that claim children are being deliberately targeted by sniper drones. So my question to Babale is, do you concede that these sniper drones (as NPR calls them) exist? --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317)._