# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317>\
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\
**Tags:** israel-hamas-war\
**Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 5746

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**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5746 "2025-12-19T16:52:34Z")

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> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Please cite for this specific claim about my post. Specific words

[Motte-and-bailey fallacy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy#:~:text=The%20motte%2Dand%2Dbailey%20fallacy,(the%20%22bailey%22)).

You start off with the motte here:

> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Shooting unarmed civilians in the back is normal legal military action?

You continue fighting outside the motte here:

> [@Babale](#):
>
> Do you mean shooting at a crowd of people who were walking towards a military position and ignoring warnings to stop?

> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> No, I mean exactly what I said.

Then you drop the drawbridge but do not retreat across it here, by introducing some off ramps like “in the back (or otherwise posed no threat)”:

> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Suppose an IDF member had reported that he witnessed or was ordered to shoot unarmed civilians in the back (or otherwise posed no threat). Would you agree that this is good evidence of IDF atrocities?

And then you post your link without actually sounding the retreat, until I call you on it, and suddenly the motte never existed and you’re only defending the bailey.

> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Specific words.

That’s precisely the beauty of this tactic, isn’t it?

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